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[cephalo]

I've been generating alot of worlds lately, and I'm starting to notice something. The goblin penchant for kidnapping, along with their penchant for murdering each other, is causing them to eventually be replaced by the descendants of their kidnapping victims. So even though the civilization is culturally goblin, by the year 1050, actual goblins make up only a tiny percent of the population.

To see this phenomenon most easily, generate a world and look at the historical figures. Filter strings on a typical goblin name such as 'Amxu' (the goblin equivalent of Urist). The list is sorted by date of birth, so the first screen will be all goblins. As you page down however, you see more and more humans, until eventually as time progresses the list of Amxus becomes entirely human!

That's pretty funny. At first I thought that the culprite was the 'cull unimportant historical figures' flag, thinking that maybe being kidnapped made one important, but that's not the case. This happens with the option on or off.

Is this ok? Or would you consider this a bug? I didn't want to make a bug report unless I was sure that this was something undesireable.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Interesting addition: Civs near goblin civs either have to go to war and win, or eventually die off.

This is because as the population of non-goblins rise, the amount of snatchers rise. Eventually every newborn in a city is captured days after it is born. The city then gets a negative population growth and dies off.

It doesn't happen every time, but it happens enough that I noticed it.

[Kavalion]

Are humans still physically superior to goblins, as well?  I've noticed that humans have a tendency to seek out and destroy all elven settlements on my worlds.  Even if they're on the other side of the region, they quickly expand until they get close enough to the elves to declare war and wipe them out.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Are humans still physically superior to goblins, as well?  I've noticed that humans have a tendency to seek out and destroy all elven settlements on my worlds.  Even if they're on the other side of the region, they quickly expand until they get close enough to the elves to declare war and wipe them out.

Humans are declaring your wars? Been my experience that the humans expand in that area and then the elves declare war asking to be wiped out.

[cephalo]

Are humans still physically superior to goblins, as well?  I've noticed that humans have a tendency to seek out and destroy all elven settlements on my worlds.  Even if they're on the other side of the region, they quickly expand until they get close enough to the elves to declare war and wipe them out.

Humans are declaring your wars? Been my experience that the humans expand in that area and then the elves declare war asking to be wiped out.

Yeah, humans like to clear out those trees.

Keep in mind though, this thread is about goblins not surviving the world gen process as a species, even though a glance at the map might indicate that they are thriving. I guess that if humans are superior combatants when it comes time for murder, this could be an issue. Goblins are usually replaced by humans, though I did have one example of the goblins being replaced by exclusively dwarves. In that case, the ratio of dwarf:goblin was about 4:1. In the human case it's usually more like 20:1.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

I think making large subregions helps alleviate the problem. My current 31.04 world has the entire goblin race extinct, but the first 31.04 world I genned (and where I didn't play because all the nice spots had aquifers and those without aquifers were too hot for my taste) had a few healthy goblin civs:

Code: [Select]

92: Sodordostngosp, "Deepcruelty", a dark fortress
Owner: The Static Deceiver, goblins
Parent Civ: The Torment of Sacks, goblins
116 goblins
105: Omosp渡u, "Vilewasp", a dark fortress
Owner: The Scorpion of Lobsters, goblins
Parent Civ: The Devious Sin, goblins
98 goblins
115: Remzuaslot, "Routedhexes", a dark fortress
Owner: The Seduction of Healing, goblins
Parent Civ: The Ticks of Reigning, goblins
93 goblins
134: Omkutsnamoz, "Girderhatred", a dark fortress
Owner: The Scorpion of Lucidities, goblins
Parent Civ: The Ticks of Reigning, goblins
39 goblins
137: Ubungebzo, "Dishdread", a dark fortress
Owner: The Hell of Carnality, goblins
Parent Civ: The Dishonest Hatred, goblins
81 goblins
141: Ugokstozu, "Rainpoisons", a dark fortress
Owner: The Hellish Hate, goblins
Parent Civ: The Torment of Sacks, goblins
49 goblins

Mmmmhhh, but looking at the map, I guess it is just because they don't have any neighbors to kidnap (^_^;;

http://www.mkv25.net/dfma/poi-23545-lakedistrict

Mmmhhh, and they don't have any demon overlords, it seems...

Note that there are other goblin civs in that world that have been taken over by their dwarven prisoners, though.

Deathworks

[cephalo]

I just generated a new huge world for actual playing on, and there are a few goblin civs left intact, but the vast majority are replaced. There is one 'goblin' civ that is fully 100 percent elves! There are quite a few goblin dark fortresses that are controlled by human civs that have a goblin 'administrator' lol.

This world seems to have a mix, which I like, but in general I would say that the kidnap rate is maybe too high. In a thousand years there should on average be no more than half of goblin civ members be non-goblins. Not a hard cap or anything just fewer kidnappings.

It's interesting that once you are kidnapped by goblins, after a probationary period you seem to have all the rights and responsabilities of full goblin citizenship. Pretty funny.

[Hyndis]

On small or pocket worlds its common for this to happen. Medium sized worlds are big enough to make it almost guaranteed that you will have every civilization around.

[cephalo]

On small or pocket worlds its common for this to happen. Medium sized worlds are big enough to make it almost guaranteed that you will have every civilization around.

Uh, oh. somebody read the title and assumed what this thread is about... Maybe I should change the title.

[blazzano]

Yep, I concur: this seems to happen a lot.

A standard worldgen gave me a world with two distinct 'goblin' civs.  One of them, the "Ticks of Planning," seems to be about 90% human and 10% dwarves, with copious amounts of prisoners from both races.  The other, "the Devil of Worship," is nearly evenly divided between elves and dwarves.  Both civs run by standard issue demons.  There are seven dark fortresses between the two of them.

The interesting thing about this is that the goblins haven't been run entirely extinct yet.  Nope, as of 1050 there is one goblin left on the entire planet.  Exactly one.  Nice timing, I thought.

[o_O[WTFace]]

It's interesting that once you are kidnapped by goblins, after a probationary period you seem to have all the rights and responsabilities of full goblin citizenship. Pretty funny.

I think the rights and responsibilities of goblin citizenship mostly involve beating stuff up and being beaten up.  I bet someday an adventurer will be able to walk into a goblin city, drop the hammer on the local leadership and start telling goblins what they are going to do. 

I usually only gen my worlds a couple hundred years, to prevent the elves from dying, but I still notice a solid number of dwarf and human goblin soldiers. 

[Urist Imiknorris]

'Amxu' (the goblin equivalent of Urist).

I prefer Snodub.

[Kogan Loloklam]

Here's the "Site Populations" of every "Dark Fortress" in my current world, and every town that has goblins in it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

128: Agunomosp, "Axevile", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Council of Blotting, humans
   Parent Civ: The Wayward Kingdoms, humans
   administrator: Athra Dishtunnels, human
   7 humans
131: Ospeatu, "Tubefly", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Admired Dungeon, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Plague of Routing, goblins
   96 humans
   1 goblin
   19 human prisoners
136: Ostazosto, "Witchbooks", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Occult Scorpion, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Colorless Monster, goblins
   69 humans
   1 civet demon
   12 human prisoners
141: Uksossagus, "Stealdawns", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Imprisoned Group, humans
   Parent Civ: The Connected Kingdoms, humans
   administrator: Thil Mirrorplanters, goblin
   13 goblins
   2 humans
142: Smoduarstruk, "Messdemons", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Wickedness of Chilling, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Vice of Roots, goblins
   76 humans
   20 elves
   14 human prisoners
   5 elf prisoners
146: Kedusmnako, "Eagletorment", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Group of Drinks, humans
   Parent Civ: The Wayward Kingdoms, humans
   administrator: Atal Brotherfainted, human
   28 humans
152: Odadostngosp, "Floodedcruel", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Thief of Mortals, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Malice of Moons, goblins
   77 humans
   13 human prisoners
157: Stul穆bu, "Failedevils", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Syrups of Scalding, dwarves
   Parent Civ: The Grooved Trumpet, dwarves
   administrator: Tosid Gulfgild, dwarf
   37 dwarves
   2 goblins
158: Snodubkasprax, "Plaguewear", a dark fortress
   Owner: The National League, humans
   Parent Civ: The Connected Kingdoms, humans
   administrator: As Bridesoared, human
   55 humans
164: Ozadgozru, "Clasphell", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Worried Ray-Ghoul, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Vice of Roots, goblins
   98 humans
   19 elves
   30 human prisoners
   16 elf prisoners
167: Slaxumot, "Fellfurs", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Dungeon of Zealots, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Plague of Routing, goblins
   73 humans
   11 human prisoners
173: Musongokang, "Wildnesscurse", a dark fortress
   Owner: The New Evils, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Taut Wickedness, goblins
   69 elves
   18 humans
   4 dwarves
   1 beige fiend
   1 goblin
   9 human prisoners
   7 elf prisoners
   2 dwarf prisoners
176: Stピostsnong, "Tickkissed", a dark fortress
179: Uslukolng・ "Earthenmonsters", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Worried Scourge, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Malice of Moons, goblins
   44 humans
   9 human prisoners
185: Oxnoaslot, "Tophex", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Cruelty of Crafting, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Mortified Cruelty, goblins
   42 goblins
188: Ngokangxosno, "Cursepulled", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Dungeon of Holding, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Taut Wickedness, goblins
   38 elves
   9 dwarves
   19 humans
   2 elf prisoners
   3 human prisoners
   1 dwarf prisoner
190: Ostaslum, "Witchhoof", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Black Spider, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Notched Immorality, goblins
   64 elves
   2 dwarves
   1 plum fiend
   11 elf prisoners
   1 human prisoner
197: Ngebzoongslun, "Dreadfulford", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Seducer of Exiting, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Taut Wickedness, goblins
   16 humans
   25 elves
   5 dwarves
   3 elf prisoners
   1 human prisoner
   1 dwarf prisoner
198: Sang敗molng・ "Strikemonster", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Vigorous Band, humans
   Parent Civ: The Wayward Kingdoms, humans
   administrator: Ithros Kindledmongers, human
   9 humans
205: Zomudbod, "Fienddirge", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Named Sin, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Taut Wickedness, goblins
   27 elves
   14 humans
   4 dwarves
   8 elf prisoners
   4 human prisoners
   1 dwarf prisoner
266: Smunstumog, "Liedikes", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Drab Terrors, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Malice of Moons, goblins
   51 humans
   1 goblin
   12 human prisoners
282: Barustozu, "Lousepoisons", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Curse of Mansions, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Taut Wickedness, goblins
   24 elves
   13 humans
   2 dwarves
   1 goblin
   8 elf prisoners
   4 human prisoners
   2 dwarf prisoners
353: Uz渡gaslot, "Tanglehexes", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Fat Malice, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Taut Wickedness, goblins
   7 humans
   22 elves
   10 dwarves
   6 elf prisoners
   4 human prisoners
378: Oz肺uspgas, "Banditmalice", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Fly of Containing, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Plague of Routing, goblins
   71 humans
   16 human prisoners
413: Gozruat, "Hellsap", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Hate of Dwellings, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Taut Wickedness, goblins
   36 elves
   2 dwarves
   2 elf prisoners
   3 human prisoners
429: Ostauk・ "Witchtempted", a dark fortress
   Owner: The Dangerous Fly, goblins
   Parent Civ: The Plague of Routing, goblins
   114 humans
   9 human prisoners
One extra town that happens to have a goblin in it (only one)
327: Rismalbelza, "Blizzardpalace", a town
   Owner: The Group of Wax, humans
   Parent Civ: The Connected Kingdoms, humans
   warlord: Kar Sheenblockades, human
   85 humans
   1 goblin

For those of you counting, that is 62 Goblins in the world (63 if site administrators aren't counted in the population counts.)

61 Technically, since I killed the one in Liedikes (Actually that town was pretty much depopulated. I had to avenge Boatsspiraled's defeat 350+ years ago by the Spider of Humidity, and so I killed the last goblin in the civ that took advantage of their defeat by building a Dark Fortress nearby, The Malice of Moons. The humans didn't appreciate it. I carry around his head still. The rest are rotting in their unholy temple. I'll probably go back and free the prisoners sooner or later...)