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[Silverionmox]

Why? Both are spatial organization tools.
Burrows have better display facilities and are more easily expanded, contracted and named.
The functions of zones will then be easier to use, while one hidden and therefore confusing feature of the interface is abolished.

[j0nas]

Perhaps with some changes to the interface regarding burrows to keep it from becoming overly cluttered, yes, this could be a good thing!

[Silverionmox]

Most of the zone functions are toggles, so these could be displayed with short, coloured words (if a finer control is needed, make a detailed screen accessible, but just keep the simple display).

[catsplosion]

Zones, stockpiles, burrows, and maybe even rooms could all be joined up pretty well.  Each of the present menus would go right on existing, as a different way of controlling a region of space, but you'd be able to prohibit cheap booze in a certain burrow or keep a certain dwarf out of your stockpile.

[Silverionmox]

I agree (zones are just an obvious first step), though I'd rather keep the rooms separate, based on one distinction: if the walls matter, it should be a room function. If not, a burrow function. That would make personal rooms, stockpiles and workshops rooms, and everything else burrows. Rooms can flow out (from an x-y-z position) like they do now until walls stop them and burrows can be painted anywhere.

[Atanamis]

Fully agree. I would rather not keep the present menus though, and instead pull the zone functions seamlessly into the burrow interface. Keeping rooms separate is probably also necessary, though I really would like to consolidate spacial organization controls as much as possible. Having every selection tool work differently isn't desirable.

[Silverionmox]

Added to the Eternal Voting List.

[CppThis]

Stockpiles should be kept separate to avoid clutter and make logistics simpler, likewise rooms are easier to manage with the q mode than having to sort through a list of 300 burrows to get anything done.  I agree with merging burrows and zones though.

[Nelia Hawk]

Move "zone" functions to burrows

Why?

this is exactly what i thought: "move zone functions to burrows.... WHY should we do this?"

i am a quite new DF player and i dont realy see "the improvement when zone functions are in the burrow area", i see more complication... not improvement atm.

lets get to this in a bit... i just want to point out this other thing too:

The functions of zones will then be easier to use, while one hidden and therefore confusing feature of the interface is abolished.

here again, i dont see WHY zones are "confuseing" or even "hidden" (they are listed in the main function list with "i").

there are other functions that are more usefull then others in my opinion and are "hidden":
i.e. the "u" button (dwarf name list) is in my eyes WAY more usefull then the "j" button (job list).
-the "u" button list the dwarfs nicely by primary job type (i.e. wood cutter) and name and shows what they do currently too. so you can quickly find a dwarf you seek by name or by "primary job" (i.e. i want to know what my 4 miners do atm) and the zoom keys "c and v".
-the "j" button is in my opinion less usefull there... as it lists TOO all 30 bed construction jobs or all 50+ farm field tiles. good luck trying to find out what your 4 miner dwarfs do in that "job"list.

and the "u" button is not listed in the main functions menu.

but, as it is a different topic i wont even start with the usefullness of the "R" button.... (it could be improved alot... maybe i start another topic for that later)


back to zones:
i dont think they are "confuseing" either. maybe i just dont find them confuseing because i am a new DF player and i "learned playing with the current version".
let me list how i see "zones":
-1st we have "designations". in my eyes it is an area where "dwarfs can do XYZ here" (i.e. chop trees, dig a tunnel)
-2nd we have "zones". i would describe them as "restrict dwarfs to do XYZ here instead of elsewhere" (i.e. instead of fishing everywhere you allow them to fish in zone 1,2 and 3)
-3rd we have "burrows". in my opinion you select an "specific area for specific dwarfs to be and do whatever they do" (i.e. dwarf 1,2 and 3 are in this area and dwarf 4-7 there)

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if i want that my fishers fish in the 3 east lakes... i press "i", mark the 3 lakes with zones and select "fishing". and i am *done*.

if i would do that with burrows: i press "w", create a burrow, (select a color and symbol if i want. and maybe name it "eastern fishing areas"), mark the 3 lakes, somehow mark them as fishing zone... AND have to search and select my fishing dwarfs in a list, assign them to that zone, so they actually fish there.

so what "improvement" do we have?
-we have that zone named. (in my eyes these simple fishing zones DONT need names.)
-we have some color and symbol marking that zone. (yay... atleast i dont "need" this either. i know these 3 zones over there are fishing zones because they are at a lake. no need for a name or color).

and we had to do a few clicks more (i.e. first createing the actual burrow) and ALOT clicks more to assign the fishers to that zone.


after a while we want to remove one lake from the east and instead let them fish on 2 more lakes in the west. additionally we want one of the original fishers to use the fisherworkshop and dont fish atall... but we add 2 more new fishers.

the burrow version:
-remove the mark on one lake in the east.
-add marks on 2 lakes in the west.
-remove one fisher from the list.
-change the jobs of that fisher.
-add 2 more fisher to the list.
-change the jobs of the 2 new fishers.

the current zone method:
-remove the east fishing zone.
-add 2 new zones at the west lakes.
-change the job of that one old fisher.
-change the job of the 2 new fishers.

i dont know, but in my eyes the zone method is WAY less complicated then the burrow method and all the adding and removeing from that assign list.

and this is just the fishing example. imagine a water zone "burrow" where you have to assign dwarfs new to the list for each imigrant you get. where with zones you simply mark the water zone and are done with it. (no adding the whole population to the list and no adding new dwarfs all the time)

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so in my opinion zones are fine how they are and adding them to burrows would just complicate everything more (as you have to assign dwarfs too).

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on the other hand, there are ways to "improve the menus" of course.
when i have to add the "zone functions" somewhere else i would add them to "designations" and not to "burrows".
a simple "create zone" line in the designation screen, that when pressed just leads you to the current menu when you press "i".
but this would just add the steps to go through the designation menu each time. so why not just leave them like they are currently with the "i" hotkey?

there are far more important things to "fix" currently then the zones.
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its similar with stockpiles, i would just keep them like they are currently. (accessable with "p")
they are "ok" as they are currently.

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its a bit offtopic.... but i would agree that rooms (+ hospital) could be changed a bit. but thats offtopic, maybe i will create a new topic for that.

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to sum it up:
in my opinion moveing zones to burrows just adds more complicated steps (micromanageing and assigneing dwarfs all the time... if you realy want to do this just throw a burrow OVER zones.) and doesnt realy "improve the functions".

[j0nas]

Improving the functionality, just off the top of my head:
* easier to list all zones, currently impossible
* easier to modify/add to a zone without removing the old one and replacing it with an entirely new one, currently impossible

There are other things that needs doing:
* well that's great, but I'm sure the actual developers are better suited to deciding what should be done and in what order

[Silverionmox]

if i want that my fishers fish in the 3 east lakes... i press "i", mark the 3 lakes with zones and select "fishing". and i am *done*.

if i would do that with burrows: i press "w", create a burrow, (select a color and symbol if i want. and maybe name it "eastern fishing areas"), mark the 3 lakes, somehow mark them as fishing zone... AND have to search and select my fishing dwarfs in a list, assign them to that zone, so they actually fish there.

Let's clear up this misunderstanding: burrows do NOT forbid dwarves that are not assigned to them from entering. Any dwarf can enter any burrow. They only can't leave the burrows they're assigned to, unless under duress. Fishers have access to that fishing burrow, unless you specifically restrict them to burrows that don't include that fishing burrow.

So for fishing zones you would press w, markt the 3 lakes with a burrow, select fishing, and you're done... unless you'd like to pick a specific symbol, or name it, but that's optional. So you lose nothing, and gain the easier display and editing of burrows, you can use the fishing burrow as a movement restricting burrow if needed without duplicating an existing fishing zone with a burrow, and there's one less option in the menu.

back to zones:
i dont think they are "confuseing" either. maybe i just dont find them confuseing because i am a new DF player and i "learned playing with the current version".
let me list how i see "zones":
-1st we have "designations". in my eyes it is an area where "dwarfs can do XYZ here" (i.e. chop trees, dig a tunnel)
-2nd we have "zones". i would describe them as "restrict dwarfs to do XYZ here instead of elsewhere" (i.e. instead of fishing everywhere you allow them to fish in zone 1,2 and 3)
-3rd we have "burrows". in my opinion you select an "specific area for specific dwarfs to be and do whatever they do" (i.e. dwarf 1,2 and 3 are in this area and dwarf 4-7 there)

As I said elsewhere, this is how I see it developing:
Burrows: permanent orders coupled to (larger) spaces (eg. executing jobs there, having access to resources there, "keep this area safe", "keep this area clean",... etc.).
Rooms: functional spaces (eg. private rooms, dormitories, hospitals, workshops, dining rooms, prisons, stockpiles,...) where walls matter for the room function.
Designations: issue single, one-time orders to items, possibly more at a time or in a larger space for UI convenience
(and Notes for point-based commands, for the sake of completeness)

Only four types of commands for spatial organization are needed. Now we have rooms, stockpiles, zones, burrows, notes, designations, workshops and more. More commands means exponentially more work to program how they interact.

[Nelia Hawk]

ahh, i think i slowly get what you want.
the problem i had was the "burrow+assign dwarfs to it" as it would complicate everything when you have to assign dwarfs to everything.

so you basically want something like this:

-press "d" for a new designation.
-a new line for "create area" in that menu.
-when selected it shows a similar screen to the burrow screen.
-press "a" for a new area.
-press "enter" to define and name that area.
-press "b" to make that area a burrow. behind the name in the list appears a blue B? (then "c" to customize it: i.e. assign dwarfs)
-or press "z" to make that area a zone. behind the name in the list appears a red Z? (then "c" to customize it: make it a fishing/water zone.)
(similar to the barracks and "train/sleep/equipment" buttons)
so you could even make it a zone and burrow and when customized you get the list for the zones to mark and a button to assign dwarfs there too.

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i guess i will throw the Room idea in here too as its a bit similar:

-press "d" for a new designation.
-a new line for "create room" in that menu.
-then you can define the area of the room. (i.e. click somewhere once and from there you can expand the area like a current room area. area is stopped by doors and walls)
-when you have the area defined it shows you all items that are in that area (like the hospital screen does with tables/beds). so when you have defined an area where you played some furniture already to be a dining hall, it shows something like:
Tables = 10
Chairs = 15
Statues = 4
-then you can press "c" to customize that room.
-you get a list of possible rooms (i.e. Bedroom, Diningroom, Office, Tomb, Barracks, Hospital, Dormitory, basically all possible room types. types that have the required furniture in that area are listed green.)
-you can select one or more roomtypes from that list. (i.e. just Bedroom. or Hospital+ Dormitory. or Barracks+ armory. or whatever combination.)
-when you selected a room type for that you dont have any furniture in that room area yet, it adds in red these required items to the item list. (so you can define i.e. bedroom even when you dont have a bed in it yet. and then when you placed the bed the items in the list go from red to white and the room is active when no red items are left.)
-if you want you can press "n" too to name that room (by default when you create them they would be named i.e. "bedroom #1" the next "bedroom #2" or "barracks #1" etc... by default it gets the name of the first "room type" you assign. (so when you chose barracks+armory+archery target for that area it would be named by default "barracks #<number>")... and "a" to assign it to dwarfs... and "f" to free the room (remove the dwarf assign)... or "r" to resize it. the other normal room functures are possible.

special rooms like hospital (that is a zone currently) or the barracks/dormitory buttons are removed and added as room types in that list.

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"R" button (view Rooms/Buildings) redesign suggestion:
(i just throw this in here too instead of createing a new topic. as this would list the created rooms/zones/burrows with name in that list)

basically it has the menu structure of a storage.
on the left is a list with i.e.
-areas
-rooms
-buildings (basically buildings that dwarfs can work in like workshops, but farms too.)
-unassigned furniture (stuff that would go into rooms but are in no room area atm)
-constructions (stuff that can be build but dont require a dwarf like the buildings)
-other (other stuff that doesnt fit in the above)

when you click on one of it it opens a new menu in the middle:
areas would open: All/Burrows/Zones/unassigned areas
rooms would open: All/Bedrooms/Diningroom/Office/Armory/etc etc etc
buildings: All/Workshops/Furnaces/other
unassigned furniture: All/Beds/Cabinets/Doors/Statues/etc etc etc
constructions: All/Stairs/floodgates/traps/levers/walls/floors/etc etc etc

when you click one of the middle "types" you get a list of all items of that type in your castle.
i.e. when you open Areas->Zones-> you get a list with the names of all fishing and garbage and sand gather zones you made.
Rooms->Bedroom-> would give you a list of all bedroom areas you made. (dont forget you can name rooms too like burrows).
or a list of all stairs or levers.

when you select something on this last right list, you get the details of it (i.e. what furniture is in the room, or what work orders a workshop has... etc)
also you can "z" zoom to that or "c" customize it (opens whatever customize screen that item would have.)

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As I said elsewhere, this is how I see it developing:
Burrows: permanent orders coupled to (larger) spaces (eg. executing jobs there, having access to resources there, "keep this area safe", "keep this area clean",... etc.).
Rooms: functional spaces (eg. private rooms, dormitories, hospitals, workshops, dining rooms, prisons, stockpiles,...) where walls matter for the room function.
Designations: issue single, one-time orders to items, possibly more at a time or in a larger space for UI convenience
(and Notes for point-based commands, for the sake of completeness)

yeah that would make sense in a way (and is similar to what i just wrote up there hehe).
so instead of these main function hotkeys... everything could be sumed up into designations.
to throw stockpiles into the room area is interesting too.

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it seems i understood what was meant with the burrow wrong. 
so yes to this topic