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[magikarcher]

Are there any Mafia/Mobster/Organized Crime themed roguelikes? I know there is LCS but it's not exactly what I am thinking of.

[Mr.Person]

Most roguelikes don't extensively feature guns since ranged weapons on a grid based system is either a UI nightmare or logical conundrum. If you can fire at an arbitrary square, choosing which square to actually shoot at can take awhile if you move a cursor around with key presses. If you can only fire in cardinal directions, the player eventually asks why he can't shoot that baddie on the other side of the room just because he's one square too far north.

[dogstile]

the player eventually asks why he can't shoot that baddie on the other side of the room just because he's one square too far north.

Of course, you could say you were using lead bullets, and put a 5% chance for it to hit lower down in the enemy's body for every square it travels.

[Soadreqm]

Are there other kind of bullets? I think they use depleted uranium for some expennsive special bullets, when they need to punch through thick armor or something, but lead is pretty great as a bullet material.

You can do smooth and intuitive gunfights. The thing is that instead of selecting a square to fire at, you select the enemy. There are usually few enough baddies on the screen that cycling through all of them to get the one you want is trivial. There was a scifi roguelike, Warp Rogue or something like that, where you selected a target and fired separately. You were constantly targeting something, and could fire by simply pressing 'f' once.

But, no. I haven't seen any mafia-themed roguelikes. LCS is probably the closest thing. Not sure why there aren't more of them, there are roguelike games of some pretty unroguelike concepts.

[Rakonas]

I think the problem is that you guys are narrowing it down and assuming it would have to be a grid based system for combat. It could have a good/mediocre bullet based combat system using a different format. Also, it wouldn't necessarily be very firefight focused, personally I can't think of any mafia fire fights, so I doubt they were common. I can't think of any definite limitations to forcing stores to pay protection money or drowning an enemy mobster in a river.

[Soadreqm]

That could be it. Doing gunfights is easy, but extorting protection money and bribing the police? Much harder. Interacting with people in a way that doesn't involve trying to kill them is really somewhat rare in roguelikes.

Also, I have a hard time envisioning a roguelike without a grid. There's Diablo, but that's really a special case, being a commercial game instead of a console-base coded-in-parents-basement affair that most roguelikes are.

[HideousBeing]

I don't know any mafia roguelikes, but DOOMRL proves that a roguelike can be really really fun with guns.

[tylor]

DoomRL, Elona, DCSS all have very effective ranged shooting system. Basically, the same system, actually:)

[Soulwynd]

Well, if I ever get off my ass and make the rogue-like I have in mind. It will have a somewhat realistic modern weapon system. I just have to keep on programming it. It's really slow, sadly. -_-

[beorn080]

Also, I have a hard time envisioning a roguelike without a grid. There's Diablo, but that's really a special case, being a commercial game instead of a console-base coded-in-parents-basement affair that most roguelikes are.

Oddly, Diablo I and II both used grid systems. Diablo I used a straight Iso square method, and DII used a Hex method I believe, though it may have been octagonal. I know this because certain effects, notably Frost Nova early on, which were billed as circular attacks ended up with a weird star shaped damage pattern until the fixed them. But yes, even the famed Diablo's use grids, though it is more fluid and less obvious then normal.

As for guns, DoomRL was mentioned. An excellent gun fighting roguelike.

As for mafia based, Incursion is closest. I THINK you can do a pacifist run, and if not in, then I believe certain violent acts give bonuses and negatives to non violent solutions. Granted, its a dungeon crawl.

[a1s]

Most roguelikes don't extensively feature guns since ranged weapons on a grid based system is either a UI nightmare or logical conundrum.

Warp Rogue

(though that wasn't my favorite)

DoomRL, Elona, DCSS

Also, the Gearhead "series" (though some people will argue they aren't rogue-likes). To be honest a good deal of modern RLs (and not very modern ones, like the excellent ADOM) feature archery or throwing as a ranged combat component, so I'm not sure where you're getting that.

[Mr.Person]

Most roguelikes don't extensively feature guns since ranged weapons on a grid based system is either a UI nightmare or logical conundrum. If you can fire at an arbitrary square, choosing which square to actually shoot at can take awhile if you move a cursor around with key presses. If you can only fire in cardinal directions, the player eventually asks why he can't shoot that baddie on the other side of the room just because he's one square too far north.

You all need to learn to read. DoomRL is the exception, not the rule. Crawl has a good ranged combat system if you count spells, although Crawl has its fair share of UI nightmares. Elona's system is great since it's simplistic. The only UI problem is if you decide to throw grenades. In other roguelikes, the best method of killing your foes is pretty much always melee combat.

I think the problem is that you guys are narrowing it down and assuming it would have to be a grid based system for combat. It could have a good/mediocre bullet based combat system using a different format. Also, it wouldn't necessarily be very firefight focused, personally I can't think of any mafia fire fights, so I doubt they were common. I can't think of any definite limitations to forcing stores to pay protection money or drowning an enemy mobster in a river.

All the ones I know of not on grid systems are strictly fantasy themed. Hell, most of the ones that ARE grid-based are ALSO fantasy themed.

[a1s]

You need to learn to read.

touche'. But I was mostly referring to it being a UI nightmare.

DoomRL is the exception, not the rule.

DooMRL is optimized for gun combat, yes. But that doesn't mean that all games that are not will suck at it.

In other roguelikes, the best method of killing your foes is pretty much always melee combat.

I think you are limiting you game experience there. In ADOM (which is more traditional on the combat side with melee being the most common way to dispose of foes) some classes are meant to be played as ranged (like, you know, Archer) and suck at melee, so you would not enjoy them with such a mindset (the game has auto-targetting, the ability to fire at a place should you which to, and severe penalties outside of range, rather than a flat limit for how fly your projectiles will fly. not spell though ). Gear-head is hard in melee (but rewarding, seeing how it's the best way to kill pilots, and dead pilots (rather then destroyed mechs) mean that much more loot) and despite playing it for a while, I always have a ranged character build. There's also that wizard maze game (the one where you have to get mana from fountains and level up by finding one knowledge orb per level), where going into melee (possible in emergencies, though increasing more dangerous as you descend) was the quickest way to die (though I guess with wizards we're already on the same page?).

most of the [rogue-likes I know] are fantasy themed.

That is sadly true (I for one am a fan of SF). It's also true of the RPG market in general for every RPG that's in any other setting (SF/steampunk/pulp/occult (or watzisname, like call of Ctulthu)/etc) there's 5 that are generic, cookie cutter fantasy. And yes, gun combat does work better after it become possible to fire more than once a minute (come to think of it, all ranged weapons are underpowered in fantasy- a crossbow could fell a knight from 300 paces (pierce an inch of (low quality) steel from a 1000 feet away) so why does it hid for 1d4 damage and miss anything that's not one good sprint away from you?)

[Mr.Person]

It's not that you CAN'T do ranged combat in a roguelike, it's just not optimal. Rather than do a turn-based grid-based roguelike, wouldn't it make more sense to just do a real-time 2d top-down shooter? Faster paced, no silly grids, and a mouse-based aiming system. No UI problems. No aiming problems.

[Soadreqm]

The problem with realistic ranged combat is that things quickly become seriously unfair. If killing things in melee is the only option, you'll just have to wade through an endless stream of monsters. Now, if those monsters have high-damage crossbows, you should be dead before you even got close to them. It's also very hard to parry crossbow bolts, and one man single-handedly defeating an army becomes a lot less feasible when you add ranged weapons.

There's also the matter of Rogue being melee-oriented. Roguelikes follow it, both out out some kind of reverent nostalgia, and because it's just easier to do. This is also why most roguelikes are linear dungeon crawls.

That said, I'd like to see more roguelikes with proper ranged combat.