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[Neonivek]

I'm not taking that bait, philosophy is a waste of time, and I'm not interested in arguing the finer points of 'meaning'.

What I mean is... The "flaw" of stagnation is that someone bigger and better will eventually beat your butts.

The Master would control everything... What risk is stagnation?

It is less philosophy and more "Practical"

The only reason he didn't succeed is because the master was, quite literally, insane

That and the Wanderer is a beast.

[NullForceOmega]

Here's my biggest problem with the Legion, and the reason I think they should all burn (other than being damned Romans).  Vulpes Inculta and the 'Lottery', okay, he's here to turn the town into an example for the NCR, how does he do it?  He could have just humanely killed everyone and crucified them, instead he chooses to make them draw lots while his soldiers rape the towns women, then methodically tortures and executes people until the lone survivor is clearly insane.  Did I mention that most of the towns women were locked in the town hall and literally FED TO HIS DOGS.  No, the legion dies, as brutally as possible.  If only for the unforgivable crime of murdering women and children in a world so badly depopulated by catastrophe.

Edit:  My largest gripe with the scenario of the master controlling everything is exactly that 'the Master controlling everything'.  I have free will and self determination, I don't surrender them to anyone or anything.

[nenjin]

I'm not taking that bait, philosophy is a waste of time, and I'm not interested in arguing the finer points of 'meaning'.

You seemed pretty willing to up until the point you weren't.

[TempAcc]

Not too different from what some ancient civilizations would have done it, albeit in a less elaborate way.

Mind you, there's accounts of vikings raping enemy leaders to "destroy their manlyness", and there's sufficient evidence that the vikings also had many interesting ritualistic ways of killing people, including the notorious "blood eagle". We dont even have to go that far either, the ottoman empire was know for taking their enemies' wives and daughters and making personal harems, ensuring them an entire life of sexual slavery. Roman generals were also known for taking "catamites" as well, which are basically nubile boys that served as sex slaves. Nero had a catamite that he dressed in his wife's clothes after she died, and called him by her name as well *shudders* :v

Then again nero was fuck-off tier insane, so.
Anyway, my point is, everything F:NV's legion does in game, ancient humans (and even current humans, IE ISIS) have done. Yes, you should totally smash them to bloody chunks, but they're in no way cartoonish or unrealistic, unless you want to consider ancient history unrealistic and cartoonish.

The only thing that makes the legion more reprovable then any of this is that the legion came up at a time in which other civilized entities that carried over the pre-nuclear world's morals and ethics existed, meaning they could've known better and learned to become more civilized if they/caesar wanted to. Like I said, F:NV's legion is just the roman empire with the good and empire-y bits taken out.

[Neonivek]

Well that and what we know about Nero was written by his enemies.

Most of what was written about Nero likely never happened.

[TempAcc]

Also the F:NV's legion is unique in its own way. Rome was known for being one of the best places for women to live in, as long you were a citizen, and not a slave, obviously. Roman women had rights and at one point, raping a roman woman was punished by having the assaulter dressed as a woman and then thrown to the masses to be assaulted in any way they deemed fit. F:NV's legion just treats women like animals for no apparent reason.

[NullForceOmega]

I'm willing to discuss the motivations of the various factions and their actions, but I'm not going off into a discussion of pure hyperbole.  I'm here to talk about NV and the Fallout universe, not arbitrary constructs of human consciousness.

TempAcc:  None of those civilizations existed in a world where the majority of the worlds population had been wiped out by an unprecedented cataclysm, nor in a world where the relics of the recently deceased civilization caused mutation, sickness and death to untold numbers of people every year.

[Neonivek]

Also the F:NV's legion is unique in its own way. Rome was known for being one of the best places for women to live in, as long you were a citizen, and not a slave, obviously. Roman women had rights and at one point, raping a roman woman was punished by having the assaulter dressed as a woman and then thrown to the masses to be assaulted in any way they deemed fit. F:NV's legion just treats women like animals for no apparent reason.

Which of course the justification of "Well this isn't the REAL Rome" would be an excuse

IF!!! they clearly didn't do research on the subject... down to even getting words and terminology correct.

There is a reason why I say that the Legion is basically a "Modern Bastardization"

and MOST people believe that Rome abused women constantly and treated them like dogs. So... Of course Legion would.

[Darkmere]

The only thing that makes the legion more reprovable then any of this is that the legion came up at a time in which other civilized entities that carried over the pre-nuclear world's morals and ethics existed, meaning they could've known better and learned to become more civilized if they/caesar wanted to.

That's the entire point I was making. They aren't IN history in the setting. They are IN a future where more modern morality is prevalent. Caesar was part of the Followers of the Apocalypse and one day decided for whatever reason that it would be a good idea to start raping and enslaving people. He spontaneously reversed the entirety of his moral outlook to be more evilly evil.

[TempAcc]

I'm willing to discuss the motivations of the various factions and their actions, but I'm not going off into a discussion of pure hyperbole.  I'm here to talk about NV and the Fallout universe, not arbitrary constructs of human consciousness.

TempAcc:  None of those civilizations existed in a world where the majority of the worlds population had been wiped out by an unprecedented cataclysm, nor in a world where the relics of the recently deceased civilization caused mutation, sickness and death to untold numbers of people every year.

Thats exactly my point though. If normal, real world civilizations were capable of these things, why not hyphotetical humans that have been exposed to that kind of devastation? If anything it would make such things more valid, IE the total destruction of civilization and the regression to tribal societies, etc.

The only thing that makes the legion more reprovable then any of this is that the legion came up at a time in which other civilized entities that carried over the pre-nuclear world's morals and ethics existed, meaning they could've known better and learned to become more civilized if they/caesar wanted to.

That's the entire point I was making. They aren't IN history in the setting. They are IN a future where more modern morality is prevalent. Caesar was part of the Followers of the Apocalypse and one day decided for whatever reason that it would be a good idea to start raping and enslaving people. He spontaneously reversed the entirety of his moral outlook to be more evilly evil.

Indeed, if anything is flawed about F:NV's legion is that it seems very out of place. If they were tribals that just picked up some old books on ancient history and started emulating ancient rome, then maaaaaaybe. But Caesar ruins it since he was anything but a tribal, and he doesnt provide any real reasons as to why he decided to suddenly round up tons of tribals and form a faction of raping and pillaging marauders hiding behind a cartoonish and frail imitation of the roman empire.

[Neonivek]

They cannot even be considered Tribals really...

Their levels of organization, their ability to obtain and construct armor made of high tech materials, as well the fact that ANY Legionaire is worth 5 NCR...

Tells me that they are quite powerful.

MIND YOU! I am joking.

The real reason they are so powerful in game is because of Story Gameplay Segregation and the fact that New Vegas couldn't handle large amounts of enemies without pooping itself... So it couldn't do rushes of 10+ legionaires like in Fallout 3 (and people wonder why I think Fallout 3 is the better game)

[NullForceOmega]

Wiping out viable breeding stock in a situation where death or sterility via unpreventable means occurs regularly and without warning is called shooting yourself in the foot.  Even in the most violent societies murder of women and children was reprehensible, and in an environment like the Wastes, it would be nearly unthinkable, and all such deaths would be accidental or unavoidable.

[TempAcc]

Sterility doesnt seem to be a general problem in the current Fallout universe though. There's lots of non-vault related organizations popping up here and there, and its implied that tribals and other such humans have actualy adapted to radiation and are breeding normally again. Considering the legion is made up mostly of reformed tribals, it would make sense for them to not consider sterility a problem.

[Neonivek]

Wiping out viable breeding stock in a situation where death or sterility via unpreventable means occurs regularly and without warning is called shooting yourself in the foot.  Even in the most violent societies murder of women and children was reprehensible, and in an environment like the Wastes, it would be nearly unthinkable, and all such deaths would be accidental or unavoidable.

Shhhhh!

You are using logic about how "Tribals" work which is they usually kidnap women and force them to live with them. (hurray classes on pre-historic cultures)

[NullForceOmega]

The numbers are still abysmally low, segments of the wastes are completely incapable of sustaining human life, it is pointed out in Fallout 2 and NV that growing crops is massively more difficult than before the war (not even vaguely surprising).  While it is never clearly spelled out, it is indicated in several places that radiation is still prevalent in groundwater supplies and there are still regular fatalities due to radiation poisoning.  It is not a large leap to make the assertion that sterility is a problem in the wastes, as we know that even low levels of radiation exposure can destroy the human reproductive system.  While over time the problem would decrease, we're only about 200-250 years after the bombs fell, not long enough on an evolutionary timescale to weed out the weakness.