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[Majestic7]

The best "other view" given about the Legion comes from Butch's daughter whose name I've forgotten - you know, that alcoholic trader chick. She talks about how traders like going to the Legion territory, because they know the lands are safe. Bandits are tortured, mutilated, crucified. If a caravan is raided, the Legion comes in and kills everyone and their mother who might've been involved. The chick admits she doesn't like the Legion since they are brutal, pro-slavery fascists... but she admits she understand the charm they have. In the chaotic wastelands, brutal oppression that offers safety as long as you follow all the rules and orders is kind of attractive.

A bit like after the turmoil of the twenties, German liked the stability Hitler brought - or how Putin brought stability of sorts after the turmoil of the nineties in Russia. I wish this lure of authoritarian safety had been shown in the game better.

[Neonivek]

It was hidden under the piles of "EVIL!" the Legion had to constantly commit directly in front of you.

Legion is basically the "Modern bastardization of what Rome was" don't expect any real nuance from that.

Mind you at least Legion has a personality. NCR I will admit is a really boring faction... Like REALLY boring.

At least Brotherhood of Steel were interesting.

I still like the NCR, but I admit I didn't like hanging around them... because their buildings were made impossibly large and hard to navigate.

[Majestic7]

Yeah well, evil being MWAHAHAHA EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is generally problem with computer game writing. Witcher is pretty much the only serie to do it well.

[Neonivek]

Yeah well, evil being MWAHAHAHA EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is generally problem with computer game writing. Witcher is pretty much the only serie to do it well.

Malicious cartoony evil isn't a bad thing, some of the greatest villains of all time were just flat out evil. It just depends if you have the style or pageantry to back it up. It is why even though Fallout 1 and 2 had a flat out evil villain (kind of), the first game had one fondly remembered while the second had one people largely ignore (for being boring)... and the second is the superior game too.

The issue was that... "EVIL MWAHAHAHAHAAA!!!" doesn't seem like what they wanted to do with the Legion. The problem was that they focused so much on making Legion such a glorious show of villainy that they sort of destroyed any ambiguity they could muster.

[scriver]

According to what I've heard, the thing about Caesar's Legion is that two of the head devs and separate visions about what they were supposed to be like, one going for the more ambivalent view (safe but cruel) while the other wanted them to be the outright SUPAR EVIL they mostly appear as. It didn't help that they had to cut the whole Legion section of the game - it was originally supposed to feature lands beyond the Colorado river where you would be able to experience a more well-rounded side of the Caesar's rule (Not to mention actually be able to to a pro-Legion playthrough and not run out of stuff to do).

Legion is basically the "Modern bastardization of what Rome was" don't expect any real nuance from that.

It's not really a bastardisation. It's pretty much just a modern/sci-fi/post-apoc version of what Rome was like.

...Aside from the lack of a Rome.

[Mech#4]

I did think that the Legion would provide a stronger base for a later democratic society to build off. The wastelands being like lawless lands and really not the U.S.A anymore. A strong and ruthless leader might be rather distasteful compared to society now, but when there's large groups of raiders who don't respect anything but strength, well...

Personally I went with the Legion because while exploring the wastes I heard people mention often that they wanted protection and safety from bandits and the NRC wasn't providing that because they were trying to hold onto too much land without enough focus on military.

I could see the angles the developers were making. The NCR being more civilised and morally right but with a weak foundation since Tandi's passing and too much land without infrastructure while the Legion was security and unity with the downsides of brutality and slavery.
It's an interesting question of whether modern morals have a place in a world which has changed so much and whether it is better to move to an older form of government or maintain the laws and ethics of a culture that doesn't really have a presence anymore.

[Neonivek]

It's not really a bastardisation

No I mean the version of Rome they are going with is the Bastardized version.

The "modern/sci-fi/post-apoc" is their spin.

As for "Legion would protect people" it would fall to what Rome typically did was create a centralized power structure and basically not care about anyone else.

[BFEL]

Though note how different Legion is from actual Rome. Mainly in their dealings with non-Legion/Romans. Actual Rome always tried to be fair and generally let the tribes they conquered rule themselves, but Legion says "fuck the thing that worked, lets betray EVERYBODY"

[Krevsin]

I really didn't mind the slavery, the authoritarian approach or the misogyny (okay, maybe not that last one), but as far as I recall, Rome was not entirely populated by luddites. If they had access to mass-manufacture of firearms, they'd probably use them on a legion-wide basis.

In NV, I didn't even feel threatened by common legionarres because I could spray them on full auto with my assault carbine and watch them die in droves. The Legion was never all that big of a threat until the battle for hoover dam where all of a sudden, they all have bloody marksman carbines and hunting shotguns.

[Majestic7]

Well, Legion is the product of a single megalomaniac and his vision of how Rome could be resurrected - while the guy has brain tumor. So not being exactly a legit replica is just fine. I just wish they had shown the authoritarian draw of the system. I'd really like to see, say, a FPS where you are told you are being the good guy, glorified for what you do etc etc, then in the ending credits they finally zoom to show your character to be in SS uniform...

[Krevsin]

Still, in an environment as populated by firearms as the fallout universe, it makes no sense to base your entire fighting force on melee, giving firearms just to the people who can scavenge them.

Now I wouldn't mind it if the legion simply used more varied and more primitive firearms (pipe rifles, single shotguns, pistols etc.), but ditching firearms entirely? No wonder they are having trouble conquering the NCR.

[Bohandas]

The best "other view" given about the Legion comes from Butch's daughter whose name I've forgotten - you know, that alcoholic trader chick. She talks about how traders like going to the Legion territory, because they know the lands are safe. Bandits are tortured, mutilated, crucified. If a caravan is raided, the Legion comes in and kills everyone and their mother who might've been involved. The chick admits she doesn't like the Legion since they are brutal, pro-slavery fascists... but she admits she understand the charm they have. In the chaotic wastelands, brutal oppression that offers safety as long as you follow all the rules and orders is kind of attractive.

A bit like after the turmoil of the twenties, German liked the stability Hitler brought - or how Putin brought stability of sorts after the turmoil of the nineties in Russia. I wish this lure of authoritarian safety had been shown in the game better.

And therein lies the issue. To an outside observer (which is what you are in relation to the Legion in FNV) Hitler and Putin are just as unambiguously evil.

[scriver]

Though note how different Legion is from actual Rome. Mainly in their dealings with non-Legion/Romans. Actual Rome always tried to be fair and generally let the tribes they conquered rule themselves, but Legion says "fuck the thing that worked, lets betray EVERYBODY"

Romans were pretty big on genocides too.

I really didn't mind the slavery, the authoritarian approach or the misogyny (okay, maybe not that last one), but as far as I recall, Rome was not entirely populated by luddites.

Neither is the Legion, really. Caesar just favours low-tech weapons that soldiers themselves can maintain and/or create, so they don't have to rely on centralized equipment/management structure to sustain themselves. It's for practical reasons, mostly, and part of the guerilla style campaign that is the reason the NCR is so overstretched from defending against.

Still, in an environment as populated by firearms as the fallout universe, it makes no sense to base your entire fighting force on melee, giving firearms just to the people who can scavenge them.

Now I wouldn't mind it if the legion simply used more varied and more primitive firearms (pipe rifles, single shotguns, pistols etc.), but ditching firearms entirely? No wonder they are having trouble conquering the NCR.

I'm not sure what games you played, but in my playthroughs the Legion definitely used guns, even for the low recruits. Could have been part of the mods though, I guess.

[Krevsin]

Still, in an environment as populated by firearms as the fallout universe, it makes no sense to base your entire fighting force on melee, giving firearms just to the people who can scavenge them.

Now I wouldn't mind it if the legion simply used more varied and more primitive firearms (pipe rifles, single shotguns, pistols etc.), but ditching firearms entirely? No wonder they are having trouble conquering the NCR.

I'm not sure what games you played, but in my playthroughs the Legion definitely used guns, even for the low recruits. Could have been part of the mods though, I guess.

Oh, in-game they do use guns quite often (AFAIK in vanilla, higher ranks use them more often than recruits but mods usually just give everyone guns) and in-game even the melee legionarres can easily swarm you and murderate you. It's part of the game, because melee and long-range options must be made at least semi-equal so the player can go either way (though who'd use the melee option in a game with such horrendous FOV is beyond me).

I really didn't mind the slavery, the authoritarian approach or the misogyny (okay, maybe not that last one), but as far as I recall, Rome was not entirely populated by luddites.

Neither is the Legion, really. Caesar just favours low-tech weapons that soldiers themselves can maintain and/or create, so they don't have to rely on centralized equipment/management structure to sustain themselves. It's for practical reasons, mostly, and part of the guerilla style campaign that is the reason the NCR is so overstretched from defending against.

Sensible enough, but shaping the doctrine in such a way that encourages scavenging weapons would get equal or even better results. Better than focusing the combat doctrine on melee formations easily countered by automatic (or even semi-automatic) weaponry, at least.

[NullForceOmega]

Bfel:  You are half correct, the Brotherhood do not share technology with the populace at large.  They also do not 'cower in their bunkers waiting for everyone else to die'  They are waiting for the rest of the wasteland to get its shit together, hence their cooperation treaty with the NCR that THE NCR VIOLATED.  Directly stated in game, the brotherhood agreed to act as part of NCRs military and provide them with advanced technology on the requirement that all advanced tech be handed over to the BoS for study and archiving, after the assault on Navarro, the NCR violated the agreement by seizing most of the Enclave tech on site.  The BoS response was typically military, you violate the agreement, we take back our toys.  This conflict is cited as one of the largest reasons that the NCR is so painfully overextended, as they just finished fighting a civil war against the most heavily armed and elite forces in the known wasteland.

Everyone talking about the 'cartoonishly evil legion':  Go play fallout 1 and 2, the Master is cartoonishly evil.  The Enclave is cartoonishly evil.  Fallout is set in a pulp-comics retro tech world, so of course the badguys are ridiculously over the top, that is how comics and serials depict the bad guy.