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Author Topic: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility v.1.9  (Read 448829 times)

Falc

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #315 on: October 12, 2010, 11:30:20 am »

Never thought I'd end up getting sneak Civ5 previews on here  ;)
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cephalo

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #316 on: October 12, 2010, 04:31:58 pm »

Is there any way I can use perfect world to take a finished, fully generated world, modify the terrain, and regen it?

I finally got my ideal embark spot -- but it's in grassland, not desert, and I'm looking for a way to change it. Can Perfect World help? Can *any* tool help?

I don't know of a tool that will do this. PW will not do that, although you might be able to export your world gen info and regen with different settings inside of DF.
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PerfectWorldDF World creator utility for Dwarf Fortress.

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Shoku

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #317 on: October 12, 2010, 08:44:49 pm »

So temperature has long confused people because of the random pole gradient messing with frozen biomes so much. By playing around in the game's painter and doing a few other checks you can figure out that the final temperature is a combination of these two things. Up at the equator end the temperature IS those icy values you set it to but glaciers and tundra are not determined by how cold it gets somewhere: they're controlled by how warm it gets. So Glaciers stop as soon as the summer is warm enough to melt ice.

Now it's been quite awhile but I was pretty sure that after you get into the really low temperature values you can get snowy winters at the equator. To generate a 50% glacier world and the mildest possible temperatures you just need to make the actual middle of the map really freaking cold and warm it up toward the edges.

Pretty simple way to handle the random poles though: just add a toggle button to show both ways it could work. Doesn't really even need to be able to show us without processing a bunch for it  ::)
But like I said, the real effect of temperature in most of the map is if it will snow and seasonally freeze. The regular map information doesn't show that anyway so you don't really need to change much.

-

With some proper utilities to measure temperature you could pretty easily work out if the equator end gets warmer winters and by how much. Maybe we could make a useful overlay that would tell you which seasons would have frozen water for both ways the polar edge could gen.
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cephalo

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #318 on: October 12, 2010, 10:10:04 pm »

So temperature has long confused people because of the random pole gradient messing with frozen biomes so much. By playing around in the game's painter and doing a few other checks you can figure out that the final temperature is a combination of these two things. Up at the equator end the temperature IS those icy values you set it to but glaciers and tundra are not determined by how cold it gets somewhere: they're controlled by how warm it gets. So Glaciers stop as soon as the summer is warm enough to melt ice.

Now it's been quite awhile but I was pretty sure that after you get into the really low temperature values you can get snowy winters at the equator. To generate a 50% glacier world and the mildest possible temperatures you just need to make the actual middle of the map really freaking cold and warm it up toward the edges.

Pretty simple way to handle the random poles though: just add a toggle button to show both ways it could work. Doesn't really even need to be able to show us without processing a bunch for it  ::)
But like I said, the real effect of temperature in most of the map is if it will snow and seasonally freeze. The regular map information doesn't show that anyway so you don't really need to change much.

-

With some proper utilities to measure temperature you could pretty easily work out if the equator end gets warmer winters and by how much. Maybe we could make a useful overlay that would tell you which seasons would have frozen water for both ways the polar edge could gen.


I know Toady is a busy guy and sets his own agenda, but it would be so much easier if he just gave us a map option to disable the poles  :P. 'if this; don't do that'. I have no enthusiasm to work that hard testing and developing probably wrong theories just to create some hacky, hard to use, hard to control, half measure that works only sometimes. I want complete control over the temps so I can then, with some chance of success, figure out how those values actually affect the game.
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PerfectWorldDF World creator utility for Dwarf Fortress.

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jiggymonkey

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #319 on: October 13, 2010, 01:57:19 am »

The reason for the error is that I'm reading a value that is beyond the normalization range. To decide what color to draw, I normalize the low end and high end of the present values to be between 0.0 and 1.0. If I use a value greater than maximum I get this. I wonder, are you drawing on a completely blank savagery map? I usually use the gradients and noise first before editing, so maybe that 's why I haven't seen this bug.

Nope =/
I generated the gradients and noise every time before messing with the brush, all after I went step by step through the process you recommended in the tut; elevation map first, then rain, etc.

Edit: I'm getting the exception when I use the brush on the volcano map as well
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 02:53:08 am by jiggymonkey »
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Shoku

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #320 on: October 13, 2010, 02:23:12 am »

Well like I said that's still the temperature where you paint it. The polar gradient really only says how much heat is added to it in Summer.

To actually work it out wouldn't be a lot of work. You can make the painted temperature constant for a whole vertical row of the world easily enough and then just embark with some goof off settings- like invasions off, 1000 fps max, all the points put into food/drink, etc. Just check the seasons and read your little thermometer close enough to see the min and max. I can already tell you that the peak temperature increases straight up linearly- no curves to worry about.

I think that Toady could do enough for our temperature woes by allowing us to make a world where both edges were frozen and the equator was actually in the middle. Then again a lot of people think he could make things easier with an init option for no aquifers but he's into keeping the geology as realistic as he can manage.
People that program simulations making them simulate things! Who'd have guessed?

The problem with flat out removing the seasonal variation though, is that with none EVERYTHING cold enough to freeze water would be tundra with BAM! green fields and flowing water right next to it. You can do that with world painter if you're willing to make things ludicrously cold but I think there would be at least as many complaints about how people couldn't use the option (and thus this program) and still get seasonal Winters.
Or he could strip this thing off and custom tailor something something that would make it play nicer with painters. If you want that though you'd going to need to put it in the voting thread, get people to actually say they want it the most, look legitimate, and then wait for Toady to get to it anyway.

MAN! Why didn't he do all these new things we want before? I'm sure after all of these years if he'd just typed a little faster it would add up to these things we constantly cry out for...

-

ANYWAY the way these generation profiles work people can actually get your program to paint their temperature. They just need to save another one with something else, like maybe rainfall, and then copy and paste that onto the end of the world with everything else set up how they wanted. They'll need to replace two letters per row (in my example PS_RF: numbers would need to be changed to PS_TP: numbers). Something like an autohotkey script would make that pretty tolerable.
By default temperature goes from 25 to 75 so even just leaving them as 0 to 100 ranges would work fine for most people. Unlike every other field temperature allows numbers between -1000 and 1000 so they would probably have a hard time if they wanted to make used of a wider range of values just because you wanted to paint things on your map that don't really have different map tiles.

But I kid- you've got all those other variables showing the sort of complex things they do in the game so I'm sure you would want to show people all those nuances I mentioned before, except apparently not if you have to give them two lists side by side to say both ways it could be depending on the pole  :(
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cephalo

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #321 on: October 13, 2010, 08:43:05 am »

One thing I haven't figured out at all is how the seasons work. It seems that one would need two temperature maps. Are you suggesting that the polar gradient is actually the summer temps while the other is the winter temps? Are you sure?
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PerfectWorldDF World creator utility for Dwarf Fortress.

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Shoku

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #322 on: October 13, 2010, 01:46:36 pm »

I'm suggesting that quite heavily yes. It's been too long since I originally mucked around trying to make glaciers so do be sure to actually check it yourself. In a medium region the gradient was some simple number step (2, 5, 10?) each tile and if my dwarf mode memories are sharp enough the winters were still dangerously cold a great ways away from the glaciers. If you can't manage to find a tool to actually read the temperatures of places you could just work out how many urists it takes to freeze water (probably on the forums even) and then paint stripes of temperature down the map to figure out how cold it's got to be before the water will still freeze in whichever season. As I've explained frozen water all the way through summer is easy to see because that gives you actual tundra and glaciers. If the painter temperature is the same regions just on the edge of tundra has rather short thaws and so forth.

In actuality I think the game actually chooses the side that's not the pole to have a big summer component and then takes temperature steps down from it. On the smallest region you've got to go down to like 0 before you can get any tundra.


If you're really concerned about being able to paint glaciers and that you'd just need to add the value for each tile that your noise generator makes to a very easy to work out gradient. Players would need to pause during world gen to see if they had the pole on the right side and abort or continue but if they really want to control temperature that much it wouldn't be too big of a hassle.

As for showing the actual seasonal variation in temperature you can't do that on the same square of space where you're showing the numeric temperature anyway. You'd need one way of showing how much of the year was frozen and another for saying the max or minimum temperature.
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jei

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #323 on: October 13, 2010, 05:09:31 pm »

Note: This is a Windows Forms application and as such requires the Microsoft .NET framework version 3.5 to be installed on the machine. Sorry Linux and Mac users! I have no idea if this can be run on those platforms or how to do that.
You are correct, .NET doesn't work in Wine (yet), so *nix/Mac users won't be able to run it.

Seems to work fine for me in Linux. Took some work though.

It's better than the generator interface that DF provides, but it's not a panacea.

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JanusTwoface

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #324 on: October 13, 2010, 06:53:55 pm »

Note: This is a Windows Forms application and as such requires the Microsoft .NET framework version 3.5 to be installed on the machine. Sorry Linux and Mac users! I have no idea if this can be run on those platforms or how to do that.
You are correct, .NET doesn't work in Wine (yet), so *nix/Mac users won't be able to run it.

Seems to work fine for me in Linux. Took some work though.

It's better than the generator interface that DF provides, but it's not a panacea.

Why did you respond to this from all the way back in May?  Both of the earlier posters were technically correct in that the .NET framework itself only runs on Windows machines.

But since then there's been discussion of using Mono (an open source implementation of the .NET technologies) to run Perfect world on both Linux and Mac.  So far as I can tell it appears to work just fine.  Here are the specific posts for both for anyone that needs them:

Spoiler: Linux (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Mac (click to show/hide)
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jei

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #325 on: October 14, 2010, 11:28:55 am »

So, I've nearly found my ultimate embark site, the only thing missing is the alignment. - Is there a convenient method to change an area from neutral to Good or Evil?
Or maybe even split the map between savage neutral, good and evil?

What I'm looking for environment-wise is is something like this, only with Terrifying and/or Joyouos Wilds, preferably with water freezing during winter.
This one is hot and warm Tropical Moist Broadleaf Forest, a hot Tropical Brackish Lake, a good sized river, a volcano and Untamed Wilds environment,
high areas south. A beautiful place and all with nice wildlife and environment. No waterfall though, :(  And oh yes, that's a marble wall there.

I embarked, but didn't play yet. Dorfs, gobs and humans as neighbors. Elves are possibly and quite prolly dead in this world.. May need to try a few regens.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Engraved on the monitor is an exceptionally designed image of FPS in Dwarf Fortress and it's multicore support by Toady. Toady is raising the multicore. The artwork relates to the masterful multicore support by Toady for the Dwarf Fortress in midwinter of 2010. Toady is surrounded by dwarves. The dwarves are rejoicing.

jei

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #326 on: October 14, 2010, 02:12:56 pm »

Is there some easy way to change the right shore to Terrifying Evil, keep the river part Neutral Untamed Wilds
and get the south west part to be Joyous Wilds? The entire area is already savage enough. Any tips much appreciated.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Another problem is no elves, haven't yet managed to get them to stay alive with all the titans and caves I put in the world.
Trying with different creature seeds and end years now...
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Engraved on the monitor is an exceptionally designed image of FPS in Dwarf Fortress and it's multicore support by Toady. Toady is raising the multicore. The artwork relates to the masterful multicore support by Toady for the Dwarf Fortress in midwinter of 2010. Toady is surrounded by dwarves. The dwarves are rejoicing.

cephalo

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #327 on: October 14, 2010, 05:49:08 pm »

Good and Evil are kindof hard to control. The only control we have is how many tiles of each region size should be good or evil, and we don't really know what makes a large region vs. a medium region. There is no 'alignment map' that we can use.
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PerfectWorldDF World creator utility for Dwarf Fortress.

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Praisegems - Snarlingtool - Walledwar

Shoku

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #328 on: October 14, 2010, 10:34:12 pm »

Are we certain that a large region and small region are not just based on tile count?
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cephalo

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Re: PerfectWorldDF world creator utility
« Reply #329 on: October 14, 2010, 11:36:22 pm »

Are we certain that a large region and small region are not just based on tile count?

I'm pretty sure they are, but I don't know what the counts actually are to distinguish from a small to a medium to a large region. I guess it really wouldn't help to know that anyway.
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PerfectWorldDF World creator utility for Dwarf Fortress.

My latest forts:
Praisegems - Snarlingtool - Walledwar
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