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[Benjamin the Rogue]

Thanks, everyone! It took me a while to get back here.

I see the problem now. i was converting it to greyscale, but I didn't think about the shadows. Why shadow a map meant to show altitude? Dumb. It all almost worked, except blue and red turn into the same colors when you convert it, damn it. I'm going to look around for more maps then that don't have that problem.

[Xilian]

I'm not sure if I'm the only one with this problem, but any tile with rainfall of >80-81 automatically gets defaulted to temperate biomes regardless if the temperature map is set to scorching.

[cephalo]

I'm not sure if I'm the only one with this problem, but any tile with rainfall of >80-81 automatically gets defaulted to temperate biomes regardless if the temperature map is set to scorching.

Make sure there isn't some complex interaction with DF's temperature map and PW's temperature map. If you are using PW's, make sure you switch the pole settings on DF to 'None'.

[Xilian]

The pole settings are at none, that's the problem the only temperature map I'm using is the one from PW, which leads to the conversion of high rainfall areas that should be tropical to temperate. This happens during world gen btw, one of the first few steps.

[cephalo]

Are the temperatures in your world uniformly high? Is it an all 'hot' map?

[Vattic]

Could this be related to the talk a few pages back of pole-less worlds not generating tropical biomes properly?

[cephalo]

Possibly, I wonder if Xilian can try to re-create the map with DF poles instead of PW poles, and see what changes. We have already determined that there are some biomes that PW can't make without help from the DF poles.

[Xilian]

I tend to have percentage below scorching at 80% so it's usually pretty hot I'd say.
I was planning on making a new map again, so I'll do some testing while doing that, using df poles and without. I'll outline how to recreate it properly after I try to pinpoint it down exactly, but so far it seems rather consistent.

EDIT: @Vattic, I read so far that dry broadleaf isn't being generated, which I have noticed but that doesn't seem to be this problem. I've tried generating mangroves swamps too but no luck so far only ever got Tropical or temperate saltwater Swamps, even with a drainage below 9. This however seems to be somewhat different I think, the only biomes affected by this problem appear to be tropical swamps and forests, as they require high rainfall, the shrublands and savannas appear to be generating as they should. Somewhere in world gen, I believe right before it starts forming lakes or during (it goes by rather fast I can't see it that well), the map first shows the icons of a tropical broadleaf forest, yet it will convert them to temperate somehow. This resulted in me having areas in which PW map says the temp is 130-134 shown as temperate and Warm or hot on the embark screen, where some around 100 would show up properly as scorching/hot and tropical, which appears directly linked to the rainfall value in PW. But as I said I'll do some more testing just to be entirely sure.

[cephalo]

one thing that also affects temperature in a hard coded way is altitude. If you export the final temperature map from DF you might see a pattern where the unexpected stuff is happening and some variance from what you imported from PW.

[Xilian]

If you know of a way to test altitude I'd love to test that too, though I'm not sure how to use scripts in dfhack and such to get a huge amount of data from the map as was done before in this thread I believe. I ran a few tests however and the problem is very easy to replicate:
Generate a world with an ocean in PW.
In the rainfall tab put the percent below forest at 70% and below grassland at 30%. Desert at 0%.
In temperature below scorching at 0%.
Check in the biome map which regions have a rainfall value over 80.
Generate the world and check the biomes of high rainfall and they will be temperate. The ones under that will be tropical. Anything other than swamps and forests are unaffected due to lower rainfall, so they are all tropical.

Another map was generated with percent below forest at 0% giving the whole map a rainfall value of 89 and above. Once more temperature at scorching (0% below), and the whole map was broadleaf and warm/hot biomes no scorching or tropical insight.
Using DF poles with this appears to create nice bands of tropical areas not under influence of rainfall. This does however mean your entire temperature map gets screwed up as you no longer have direct control. Using north and south pole in the all scorching map with forest below 70% made poles that were temperate and a band near the middle of the map tropical. So it fixes the problem but you lose control.

On a sidenote I'd have to say that this problem can be easily circumvented by turning the below forest threshold at 100%. this can still produce some areas with rainfall above 80 but these are always directly next to an ocean. Since a rainfall value of >75 is required for moist broadleafs forest these become increasingly rare if you don't carefully align your noise maps to keep rainfall in some areas between 75-80. Else they will either give you temperate biomes in a full tropical area, which appears to screw with the temperature in some way ( I'm not sure how, I should probe the given tiles for temperature using DFhack, though I'm not sure how to do so in a fast large scaled way.) or you will get no moist broadleafs and only confer forests, which will be tropical but delete an enermous part of fauna you get from the moist broadleaf forest.
On another sidenote I am still unable to generate mangrooves, I know it's possible according to an earlier post but I have yet to figure out how.

[cephalo]

What are you doing with the drainage map?

[Xilian]

Drainage is at 15% below dunes, 50% below rocky/grass and 85% below hills, Standard deviation map filter size: 15
I'll try to change the drainage and see what happens

[Xilian]

Allright I ran some tests

All worlds were generated in a 0% below scorching temperature PW map unless stated otherwise.
All worlds use the same elevation, temperature, volcanism and savagery map unless otherwise specified.
Elevation map contains a west ocean and east mountain range.
Rainfall shadow map generated at 321.1 degrees.

Results:
World 1.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 100% below forest.
Drainage: 0% below Dune/swamp, 0% below Rocky/Grass, 0% below Hills.

World was entirely tropical except for a few regions which had a rainfall value > 80

World 2.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 100% below forest.
Drainage: 0% below Dune/swamp, 0% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.

World was entirely tropical except for a few regions which had a rainfall value > 80

World 3.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 100% below forest.
Drainage: 0% below Dune/swamp, 100% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.

World was entirely tropical except for a few regions which had a rainfall value > 80

World 4.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 100% below forest.
Drainage: 100% below Dune/swamp, 100% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.

World was entirely tropical except for a few regions which had a rainfall value > 80
Special notes: Abundance of Mangroove swamps. Appear to replace tropical saltwater swamps where drainage < 9. Further testing required.

World 5.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 0% below forest.
Drainage: 0% below Dune/swamp, 0% below Rocky/Grass, 0% below Hills.

World entirely temperate.

World 6.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 0% below forest.
Drainage: 0% below Dune/swamp, 0% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.

World entirely Temperate.

World 7.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 0% below forest.
Drainage: 0% below Dune/swamp, 100% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.

World entirely temperate.

World 8.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 0% below forest.
Drainage: 100% below Dune/swamp, 100% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.

World entirely temperate.
Special note: No mangroove swamps, instead temperate saltwater swamps. Confirms the suspicion that mangrooves replace only tropical saltwater swamps with a drainage < 9.

Further testing for mangrooves:
World 9.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 100% below forest.
Drainage: 100% below Dune/swamp, 100% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.
Temperature map 100% below hot.

No mangrooves appeared, world was entirely temperate.

World 10.
Rainfall: 0% below desert, 0% below grassland, 100% below forest.
Drainage: 100% below Dune/swamp, 100% below Rocky/Grass, 100% below Hills.
Temperature map 100% below scorching.

Mangrooves appear.
Special note: nearly no tropical climates. Tropical climates occured in regions with temperature values > 105. Mangroove swamps occured only in regions with a temperature > 105.

Conclusion: Drainage appears unrelated to the problem. Rainfall appears to be the only correlation to the occurrence of the problem.
Mangrooves swamp generation requires: Rainfall value 66-80 (66 because that the lowest value for swamps, and 80 cause over 80 they turn into temperate climates.), Drainage < 9, Temperature > 105

I hope this gives enough proof of the problem, it would be nice if someone else could confirm this for me. If it's a problem solely I am having there might be something wrond with my world gen, though I have not modified these files whatsoever.

EDIT:
I was wondering whether a temporary solution to this problem could be minimising the maximum rainfall value to 80 and making the threshold for forests contain the rainfal values of 75-80 or 70-80 directly controlling the amount of broadleaf and conifer forests as well as swamps, circumventing the tropical to temperate issue?

[cephalo]

I'll do some more research on this when I have the time. You may have found a bug that has gone unnoticed because most people don't use so much scorching biome. Except the problem doesn't happen when DF poles are being used... I'm not sure what's going on.

[Xilian]

If you need me to run some more tests just say the word. Right now I put below forest threshold at 100% to keep rainfall below 80, however it is incredibly difficult to form broadleaf forests since rainfall values between 75-80 are scarce like this. and broadleafs contain by far the most fauna.