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[Mephansteras]

How about the town is informed at the beginning of the game whether there is an advanced dopp?

That's not a bad idea. There could be a different colored pod or something.

[Leafsnail]

Can I just say - I basically won two games.  Once for the town by identifying ALL the dopps, and once for the dopps by turning around the hopeless situation.  So, with that in mind:

Spoiler: For large image (click to show/hide)

So I don't think it was unbalanced... afterall, if Org hadn't been an AD, town would've easily beaten the dopps (and, although Solifuge was actually playing a pretty good game as exty, one of the remaining PRs would probably get him).

Which reminds me - sorry, Solifuge.  You were playing well.  I didn't really suspect you at all before I became a dopp and found out you were scum.  On the other hand, you were a wildcard in a set of townie pieces that would all behave fairly predictably at night, so...

[webadict]

Nuke, shut your dirty mouth. If you're not even going to bother looking at what I said, then how about shutting up? Sure, I wanted to win, but I don't care about that. I can't win anymore, can I, moron? Dur, I didn't t'ink so, but me so dum me no no.

I'm pointing out a critical flaw in the game that should be fixed. 25% of the players were scum with two kills. That means that two kills that couldn't hit Dopps were hitting non-Dopps?

Do you know what that means? It means it's 99 FRIGGIN' PERCENT CHANCE OF TWO DEAD TOWN YOU MORON! Especially with Meph's exclusion of redirecters, so no kill will be shot back unless you sacrifice yourself.

Maybe 2 kills is too big of a number for you to comprehend. How about this: There are 4 Dopps and 12 Town. If the Dopps kill 2 people each Night, when is it lylo?

Give up? It's Day 2. That means two mislynches and it's game over. Why? Because if you miss Day 1, it's down to 4 Dopps and 9 Town. If you miss again, it's 4 Dopps and 6 Town. See a big pattern here?

The only way it's stoppable is by removing the source of a second kill. But you wanna bet a Vigilante's going to be lynched? Nope.

This is why we were lucky Night 1. We could've been in lylo.

Moron.

[Mephansteras]

Yes, but it's not just simple math, Web. Please give me some credit for taking things like that into account.

You'll note that I also made sure that there was a War Vet and an Exterminator in this game, as well as a Vengeful guard. Lots of ways for the Dopp Vig to die, and that's assuming that he doesn't get lynched for being obviously a dopp. (Say, from an Agent's inspection)

Yes, if all goes wrong in a set-up like that the town loses fast. You could have lost 4 townies night 1, without killing a single dopp or alien. But if everything goes against the dopps, they lose fast too. They could easily have lost two dopps night 1 (War vet and Exterminator) and had another uncovered by the agent. That would have knocked it down to just 1 dopp and the exterminator by day 2. Very different game.

When I pick a set-up I check to make sure that both main sides have a decent shot at winning. Since most of the recent games have been fairly close, I think I'm doing a decent job. Luck also plays a major factor, of course, and I do my best to give set-ups where luck should at least even things out a bit.

[ToonyMan]

The game did end on a win or lose situation.

[Jokerman-EXE]

I see WUBA's point, but it seemed like it was fairly balanced to me. We couldn't have won without a lot of luck AND web's vote.

[webadict]

Meph, try it again. You'll find that 95% of the time, that DOESN'T happen, and it's more likely that Dopps lose zero people. We were lucky to kill one.

[Mephansteras]

Well, we'll find out if we get another Dopp Vig. It's not like we've had too many of them so far. In fact, this might be the first one.

[webadict]

It is the first one. That's why these problems haven't been addressed.

[Mr.Person]

It is the first one. That's why these problems haven't been addressed.

Exactly. All we have is this one game. Yes, the Dopp Vig weight probably needs adjustment up, but we don't know that yet. I don't feel comfortable changing the Dopp Vig weight around until we have more data than this one game that played out well. Webadict, you're probably right, but actual games are guaranteed to show reality. If you're right and more Dopp Vigilantes show up and are unbalanced, we'll fix it.

Personally, I think you're bitter that you lynched Ottofar. Don't be, it was a tough call. I probably would of lynched Ottofar if I were you.

[Pandarsenic]

The problem was that by the end we had ABSOLUTELY NO CHOICE but to keep the vig alive, because if he WASN'T scum it was instant loss.

To my credit, I totally had Leafsnail's number at the end - I hadn't guessed he was converted but I knew he was scum.

[Leafsnail]

Pandarsenic - uh, no.  Lynching Jokerman would lead to instant dopploss (there'd be no way for me to explain a town result on Jokerman).  You could've lynched Jokerman safely on any day.

And you had me as scum... but from your POV, I had to be scum (in the same way that from mine you and Ottofar had to be scum).

[Pandarsenic]

Leaf: Yes, but because a Doppvig puts us at Lylo so soon, mislynching him = instant town death
As for you being scum, the only person I absolutely knew was not scum was Wubadict.

Also

We tell webadict to block Pandarsenic (since his role is kinda useless at this point anyway... except for uncovering me :x)

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF-

It hinges on WUBA's vote. If he votes with us, he will have voted with the entire remaining Dopp team and won us the game single-handedly.

I can hardly wait to see what happens.

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU

Various discussion much earlier about converting me instead

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[Leafsnail]

Converting someone else would've been... odd.  I had the scumteam nailed day 2 (in fact, I inspected Org on night 2... so I'd know for a fact he was an AD).  The dopps certainly would've been in trouble.

And there was no way I could be town - I had claimed 2 town results on people who couldn't be leaders, thus meaning either you and Ottofar were scum or I was (I could potentially team with anyone, but I'd have to be part of the team).

And if Jokerman were town, there'd've been no dopp vig (you'd definately expect a dopp vig to kill...).  So it was no more dangerous to lynch him than anyone else (perhaps different kill methods messed with town... if everyone just showed up as "killed" Jokerman could've been lynched as an SK ).

[Pandarsenic]

I wasn't referring to him being a Dopp Vig in particular, just that by that point we had a fucked up ratio of scum to town.