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[NUKE9.13]

This was an excellent game. It was pretty balanced, yes, and if solifuge hadn't tried the deadman gambit/ webadict hadn't been so stupid, it might actually have been an exty win.
Future townies should take note of JTF's point on day 3:
If the town is up to its neck in power-roles, so are the scum.

[Solifuge]

Because it bears reposting:



But no, good game all. I daresay Town really should have kept me around: my analysis turned out correct in the end, if you take out all the "Vigilanti kills Dopple" possibilities... gives you a pretty good picture of the probable results... Town could have used something to harass the Dopps with. I see why you did it, but even from an objective standpoint, you were better off aiming for a Dopp than killing your friendly neighborhood Exterminator.

Org, fine pick on Leafsnail, and Leafy that was some nice roleplaying there. When you got Adv.Dopped, I couldn't tell at all. I'd probably have burnt my scan on Joker, but not you.

[Org]

Org wins!

[Jokerman-EXE]

High five team!

We Adv. Dopp'd Leaf because he picked all of us Dopps on his first try. The Agent part was a bonus.

[ToonyMan]

Org didn't want to pick Leafsnail...we made that choice together.
Org wanted to take over Webadict or something Day 1 which I thought wouldn't have yielded the best nectar.

Overall I am disappointed with my scum play, but congratulate Leafsnail on picking out all the scum Day 2 and then bringing out the win for scum, great job.

[webadict]

I'd like to point out the game wasn't balanced, but okay.

The AD can't come up Townie. It ruins most analysis of the game.

Plus AD + Dopp Vig? Only an Exterminator for Aliens? One thing it's not is balanced.

[Mephansteras]

I think it was balanced pretty well, actually. Good interplay between the different power roles.


The Advanced Doppelganger can ONLY flip normal townie. It's the only way the replace can possibly work. And, actually, Leafsnail was very nearly uncovered after the replace by Pandarsenic. If he hadn't been blocked night 3 he'd have gotten a 'No Role' result, which would have exposed that he wasn't an Agent. So I felt the Adv. Dopp worked as it should.


The town had plenty of roles to counter what the dopps had. Two Psychic Wardens and a Guardian to counter the Vig, two Detectives and an Agent to counter the Adv. Dopp, an Int. Scientist to counter the dopps scientist, plus other useful roles like the Reporter and Enchanter.

It was heavy power roles for both sides, and it literally came down to a 1 vote win-or-lose situation at the end.

Short of actually getting an Exterminator victory for once, I couldn't have been happier about it.

[JanusTwoface]

Org wanted to take over Webadict or something Day 1 which I thought wouldn't have yielded the best nectar.

I wish you would have listened to him. Would've been quite a different game!

I'd like to point out the game wasn't balanced, but okay.

The AD can't come up Townie. It ruins most analysis of the game.

Plus AD + Dopp Vig? Only an Exterminator for Aliens? One thing it's not is balanced.

Did you check the weightings? I'll look later, I'm curious with the Adv Dopp and the Agent originally town. Also, Alien's are all +0 (which may be a little odd for Exterminators, although it makes sense for Scientists).

[webadict]

I checked the weightings including Org's possible AD.

No Meph. Think of it this way. The Town was incredibly lucky. We KILLED a Dopp every Day and an Exterminator and we were STILL at lylo. I scoff at your claim of balance if you think luck is the prime factor of balancing.

The AD can flip AD and it stops ridiculous amounts of WIFOM. Sure, the Townie has about a 1% chance to ever show up, but it does help. Basically it's a Death Antimiller that can ruin the Medium and any other role. Sure, someone joins your team and it's "possible" to find them if you're lucky, but not really.

[webadict]

The miracle lies mostly in the fact that the Town didn't lose more than 4 players by Day 2 and that the Dopps protected the only non-Dopp killer. It might've been balanced if there were 3 Dopps. Maybe. But, without a Medium, a Dopp Vig is basically giving away the win to the Dopps. The AD didn't even matter a whole lot, though it's nice for a real flip. But that Dopp Vig is just bad. It more than neutralized the extra power to the Town.

[Mephansteras]

The town also lost a Detective, a Psychic Warden, and a Guardian on the first day. So there was a good amount of bad luck as well. And, since you guys managed to lynch scum two out of four days it's not like it was *all* luck that the game hinged on.

And, yes, the Dopp Vig is very powerful. That's why it's one of the most expensive roles the dopps can have. Was it unbalanced? Watching how things played out...I don't think so. The town had plenty of ways to neutralize him.



As far as the Advanced Doppelganger goes...you still haven't convinced me that it's unbalanced. But we can talk about that in the discussion thread if people want a change in how it works.

[Solifuge]

I'd respectfully disagree, Web. Losing our Agent was a heavy blow to Town, but it was a lucky move by Dopps. Additionally, many of the Town PRs conflicted, blocking our remaining investigators, and limiting the pool of available knowledge.

It was really a mixed bag, with that last vote. It would have been quite different if any of those variables had changed, or if Leaf had been lynched instead of Ottofar on the last day. It really was anyone's game.

[webadict]

It's completely unbalanced. Giving the scum another kill effectively gives the Town less power, even with the extra boost.

Meph, we didn't have bad luck. That was GOOD LUCK! If we had had the Dopp protect someone else, we would have lost the Exterminator, which means we would have been at 11 people: 4 scum, 7 Town. Do a little math there. If we lynched one scum each Day, and they killed twice, we could win. It would have been a D2 lylo. That first Night: lucky. Second Day: lucky. Third Day: could've been luckier.

You're drastically underestimating how lucky we were. We were at lylo on DAY TWO without me. Best we could do is lynch the Vig, a feat that simply wouldn't happen.

You might think two kills is fine and dandy but it's the worst move that can happen for Town.

You can't possibly think we were unlucky. Not a chance. We got... What, a little more of a boost all around for that? -8? A normal Dopp PR is around -3/-4. We didn't offset that Vig at all. They killed that offset first Night.

And the AD has a flaw in that you can't accurately depict the setup, and you don't know if a player has been converted, so looking at OLD talking doesn't work anymore. If the Town is told someone is converted, at least they can know not to scumhunt with the old stuff.

It's a game change that no one is told of. It's like playing a game of chess and your piece changes side, but you're not told until your opponent moves it and tells you.

[NUKE9.13]

One feels that webadict is just sore because he failed to take into account that by day 3 the vig (practically) had to be a dopp and should have been lynched instead of solifuge
Regarding the adv. dopp thing: How about the town is informed at the beginning of the game whether there is an advanced dopp?

[Toaster]

Good game, all.  Leaf, I would have been very stunned by you calling Joker human if I hadn't seen the truth in dead chat.