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[Ilmoran]

Pfffft. Wikipedia ALWAYS saves the day.

"Though bronze is generally harder than wrought iron, with Vickers hardness of 60–258[2] vs. 30–80,[3] the Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age; this happened because iron was easier to find. Bronze was still used during the Iron Age, but, for many purposes, the weaker wrought iron was found to be sufficiently strong. Archaeologists suspect that a serious disruption of the tin trade precipitated the transition. The population migrations around 1200–1100 BC reduced the shipping of tin around the Mediterranean (and from Great Britain), limiting supplies and raising prices.[4] As ironworking improved, iron became cheaper; and as cultures advanced from wrought iron to forged iron, they learned how to make steel, which is stronger than bronze and holds a sharper edge longer."

/thread

But, the answer to your second question is in the Bronze article that was already linked:

Though bronze is generally harder than wrought iron, with Vickers hardness of 60–258 vs. 30–80, the Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age; this happened because iron was easier to find. Bronze was still used during the Iron Age, but, for many purposes, the weaker wrought iron was found to be sufficiently strong. Archaeologists suspect that a serious disruption of the tin trade precipitated the transition.

A little late?  That article was quoted halfway up the page. 

[gtmattz]

Thats what i get for skimming XD

[Nikov]

http://www.gizagrid.com/body_egyptian_iron.html

Seems like the Iron Age and Bronze Age were more or less myths. Also I recall Goliath had a spear head weighed in iron while the rest of his equipment was weighed in bronze or brass, and the Iliad makes frequent mention of bronze cuirasses and iron spears. I suspect a reason exists for this.

[czolus]

Keep in mind, when Rome defeated Gaul, they used bronze and iron weaponry, respectively.  Its more a function of what was around.

[Nikov]

IIRC the Roman army standard issue stabby piece of metal was made of iron, wasn't it? At least, since they started wielding swords instead of Hellenic-style spears?

[CppThis]

Well the Roman pilum was made of soft iron, which was one of the reasons it was so bloody dangerous...it would bend on impact making it hard to remove and impossible to throw back.  I'm pretty sure their swords were low-grade steel, though I'm sure in the provinces they used whatever was available.  Unlike DF, in the real world when you jab someone with a big pointy piece of metal it generally hurts even if the other guy's armor is of slightly better quality material.  So iron doesn't have to be better, just cheaper while still being capable of getting the job done.

[kaypy]

Seems like the Iron Age and Bronze Age were more or less myths. Also I recall Goliath had a spear head weighed in iron while the rest of his equipment was weighed in bronze or brass, and the Iliad makes frequent mention of bronze cuirasses and iron spears. I suspect a reason exists for this.

I seem to recall something meant bronze made better armor even after iron had an edge (sorry) in weapons. (Problem is there's been enough of these debates that I forget all the details). I think maybe it came up somewhere in
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55348.0

[twwolfe]

"horsearchers were the most powerful weapon in the world until the invention of gunpowder"

This isn't really true either. The Mongolians were very successful as horse archers, in most part, because fighting from horseback was a cultural norm.

-Jesse

also, they were fighting against people who were far less disciplined than they were. European knights managed to fall for their "retreat and ambush" tactics over and over again.

[albatross]

If your weaponsmith has a preference for bronze (the prefs listed in each dwarf's profile), then it -might- be prudent to order him to smith bronze weapons, rather than iron ones. Or whatever metal or alloy is better gamewise. Always see if you have a dwarf with a preference for some cool metal. Then start training that dwarf ASAP. The stuff they craft is superior. Smith an axe, melt an axe. All you really need to worry about is fuel for the forges and furnaces.

[CppThis]

Trouble with that strategy is in .31 it appears weapons just bounce right off armor that isn't at least one material level lower (except for goblins, who seem to be able to mow down steel-clad dorfs with their iron whips o doom...).  And blunt bounces off no matter what, with the possible exception of modded-in platinum hammers.  So even if your weaponsmith prefers a particular metal I'd say go with the best available to stand any decent chance of cutting enemy armor unless/until the combat system is not so binary with respect to damage.

[Scribble]

...Re the historical references I think people often infer too much from an armies success.   The Romans and Mongols where so sucessfull because of thier logistical and strategic exellence, not their weaponry.  if a thousand disaplined soldiers with uniform arms and a good suppy train face a thousand warriors with superior individual combat skill and arms but little cohesion, the soldiers will win almost every time. Battles arn't won through combat prowess, but rather disapline and tactics, wars not through quality of arms, but rather logistic trains and stratagy.

[Iapetus]

Iron on it's own is fairly brittle. Cast iron can be used structurally, but you wouldn't want a sword of any form of pure iron. Steel on the other hand, in it's various forms, is an excellent material for weapons, and far superior to bronze. The game accurately reflects this.

Slight correction:

(Pure) iron (aka wrought iron) on its own is not brittle, rather it is soft and easy to work, and has a relatively low melting point, so is easy to weld.

Low-carbon steel (aka mild steel) is slightly harder, and hence slightly more brittle, but not significantly so.  Due to modern manufacturing methods, its cheaper to produce then wrought iron, so is used for most purposes that wrought iron traditionally was.

High-carbon steel is harder, but brittler.  It is good for making cutting tools and edged weapons, because it can be made sharper, and keeps its edge better (as long as you don't chip it).

Cast iron has even more carbon in it, plus some silica.  It is hard (I presume harder than high-carbon steel, but I couldn't find any stats), easy to melt and cast (hence the name), but too brittle to be used for edged weapons/tools.

[Golcondio]

Cast iron has even more carbon in it, plus some silica.  It is hard (I presume harder than high-carbon steel, but I couldn't find any stats), easy to melt and cast (hence the name), but too brittle to be used for edged weapons/tools.

Cast iron (I'll refer here to the most common GRAY cast iron, whose coloring is due to the presence of graphite flakes/nodules in the iron matrix) IS hard, but definitely not harder than high-carbon steel: typical Brinell hardness for cast iron used for a marine engine block is around 200, while high carbon steel (quenched and tempered) is normally in the 400-450-ish...

The best tradeoff between hardness and toughness (impact resistance) is obtained using a low-carbon, high-alloyed steel which gives the part a very tough core, and then performing a localized hardening of the surface by thermal and chemical treatment (surface quench, carburising, nitriding, carbo-nitriding).

[Dwarfoloid]

(Pure) iron (aka wrought iron) on its own is not brittle, rather it is soft and easy to work, and has a relatively low melting point, so is easy to weld.

Wrough iron shoudn't be considered pure iron though. Especially not the medieval charcoal iron, which was, as far as I understand, less pure generally than early industrial age decarburized puddling iron.

The basic phosphorous charcoal iron used for basic tools and simple weapons seems to have been in roughly 80-100HV (300-340 MPa tensile strength) range when unhardened, quite comparable to similarily unhardened bronze. Which of them would make harder weapons would be mostly a matter of how hard the smith decided to work them. Historically neither seems to have commonly been hardened up to the material's practical limit.

BTW, the game's iron and pig iron both get their stats from a certain real world grey cast iron (the yield point is rather dubious though).

[Kurara]

Nikov,

The part you mentioned about the Iliad having iron weapons is likely just anachronistic vocabulary being used by Archaic and later Greeks in their reproduction of the famous work.

Also, translations readily available often barely capture the essence behind the Greek (or the variety of meanings behind each word).