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Author Topic: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG  (Read 8315 times)

quinnr

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 06:03:11 pm »

REMINDS ME OF FF7:
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Zaranthan

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2010, 06:20:53 pm »


I don't think it's as simple as them just being extremely linear though. Much of it has to do with the massive disconnect between the gameplay and the story. Generally the people you control when playing the game aren't the same people as in the cut-scenes. They don't have the same abilities, or do the same things you do... And often things work differently just to progress the plot.
Play Devil May Cry 3. There are maybe two or three things that happen in cutscenes that you can't do in gameplay, and that's counting pointing a pistol at someone menacingly (when you pull out the pistols, you can only point BOTH of them menacingly) and beating people up with a jet-powered motorcycle that you're riding through the air. Yeah, it's that good.


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Final Fantasy V.

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Intelligent Shade of Blue

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #17 on: May 13, 2010, 11:59:54 pm »

Honestly, I don't really consider any non-MMO RPG video games (be they JRPG, CRPG, or whatever) to really be role-playing games. Your choices (if they exist) are given to you in a predetermined list, and thus you aren't really able to play a unique character or "role". You aren't able to role-play a character when your dialog is chosen from a handful of choices, or when the characters you interact with are scripted to react in a certain way. IMHO, the only true role-playing games are the ones you play with other people, crafting your own stories and your own persona as you go along. Compared to table-top/LARP and sandbox style MMOs/MUXes, the so called RPG genre is really more of a choose your own adventure (or some cases, a somewhat interactive movie) with strategic combat/gameplay. IMHO of course.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 12:03:12 am by Intelligent Shade of Blue »
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unperson

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2010, 02:19:55 am »

For me a game where your only choise is to fight from beginning to end is not realy an rpg. Unfortunatly most "rpg's" lately are like that. You hack your way trough endless enemies to the end occasionally interrupted with some story/dialoge.
Some of these games have good story, for example I realy liked some parts of Dragon Age, mostly the dialoge but I wish there was a way to skip all that mindless-boring killing.
I loved that in Fallout 1-2 I could make a total weakling who would shoot himself in the foot if he tried to use a gun, but get high intelligence+charisma and still have great fun, beeing able to solve almost any situation by talking. Another example is Planescape Torment, that game actually managed to ruin all rpg's I have played after it because none gets even close.
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Hawkfrost

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2010, 04:56:22 am »

Some of these games have good story, for example I realy liked some parts of Dragon Age, mostly the dialoge but I wish there was a way to skip all that mindless-boring killing.

I rather know how you mean.
Sometimes the battles require you to think and use strategy/skill (Disgaea, Tales of Vesperia), othertimes you start to wish you could just get the next damn piece of story already (Persona 3, Final Fantasy 1/3).
Not that those games are bad, far from it.
I think the real thing that grates on your patience is the random battles. Yes they can be fun, but only while the enemies are interesting and not something you can just smash "A" repeatedly to kill. At that point the battles are just annoying interruptions that you start to run from to make them end quicker.

I really only refer to them as "RPGs" because its easier than saying "Stat focused, turn-based, story driven battle game thing", inwhich people will start to stare and ask such questions as "Huh?" and "What the hell are you talking about?"
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Toady Two

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2010, 05:05:02 am »

Has anyone ever tried making another game that is like Planescape:Torment? I mean with a similar style, compelling main character and philosophical approach.

I can't really say much about the subject at hand. The only Bioware RPG (BRPG) I've ever played was Neverwinter Nights (the first one) and it sucked. The only JRPG that  played was Golden Sun on the Gameboy. I don't think the games can be compared. They are completely different genres but share 3 letters of the acronym. I think that's what make developers frustrated. If a customer likes Bioware RPGs and looks for RPGs in a store catalog then JRPGs show up too and it hurts the sales.

Also I hate the "moral choice" gimmick. Choosing whether you murder everyone including the children and get -1000 Karma in Fallout or get +1000 from saving puppies isn't a moral choice. It's more of a background/character development/flavor choice. A game in which I saw real moral choices was The Witcher. That game didn't tell you which one was "good" and "evil". I was up to your morals to decide and the consequences of your decision would be portrayed later in the story, for better or for worse.
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Mfbrew

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #21 on: May 14, 2010, 06:50:02 am »

Ultima had intelligent moral choices in 1985, and it's kind of sad that the rest of the wrpg genre has backpedalled.

Remember the gypsy lady with all of the "your Rightful lord asks you to lie to protect his name. Do you A) embrace honesty and turn him in to his accusors, or B) Honor your commitment to your lord?"

Everybody knows that the jrpg and wrpg genre, while
not strictly role playing games according to the logic of the English language, have inherited their name for their origins in d&d and roguelikes.  It's like how a guinea pig isn't really a pig, or a Panda bear isn't really a bear.
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Pathos

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #22 on: May 14, 2010, 08:12:48 am »

Pandas aren't really bears? =(
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fenrif

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #23 on: May 14, 2010, 08:20:35 am »

Pandas aren't really bears? =(

Pandas are bears.
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Toady Two

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Vattic

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2010, 08:36:18 am »

Everybody knows that the jrpg and wrpg genre, while not strictly role playing games according to the logic of the English language, have inherited their name for their origins in d&d and roguelikes.  It's like how a guinea pig isn't really a pig, or a Panda bear isn't really a bear.

Except that pandas are a type of bear but otherwise you are correct.

edit: hit preview and got Ninja'd.

Honestly, I don't really consider any non-MMO RPG video games (be they JRPG, CRPG, or whatever) to really be role-playing games. Your choices (if they exist) are given to you in a predetermined list, and thus you aren't really able to play a unique character or "role". You aren't able to role-play a character when your dialog is chosen from a handful of choices, or when the characters you interact with are scripted to react in a certain way. IMHO, the only true role-playing games are the ones you play with other people, crafting your own stories and your own persona as you go along. Compared to table-top/LARP and sandbox style MMOs/MUXes, the so called RPG genre is really more of a choose your own adventure (or some cases, a somewhat interactive movie) with strategic combat/gameplay. IMHO of course.

I do see what you are saying but also think you're taking the definition too far. Even tabletop and MMO games have limits; be they the DM rejecting your character at the start, limited class lists or even problems with the mechanics. An understanding of where the limits lie is important while role-playing and sometimes they can get in the way but they must be worked within. Due to limits in technology single-player video games tend to be more restrictive than tabletop or multi-player games these limits come in the form of limited dialogue options or unrealistic boundaries. So long as the limits don't stifle the player too much the player can work within them. A lot of the current RPGs on the market offer very narrow constraints and so the potential for role-playing is severely limited. I suppose it all depends how open a gaming system needs to be before it can be considered suitable for role-play. Personally I like to see my actions have some impact on the story beyond the simply cosmetic.

Just to make my position clear the only JRPG I played was Skies of Arcadia, this wasn't really a role-playing game bur rather a game with RPG mechanics and limited customisation. I'm currently playing through Bioshock, a FPS with limited moral choices, customisation and some RPG mechanics. Neither are really role-playing games as the outcomes to your decisions are mostly cosmetic. As others have said lot's of RPGs just have RPG-like mechanics and some character customisation.
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sapperski

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2010, 11:09:26 am »

In my opinion, the only true RPG's out there are pen and paper. Yes, I agree that a lot of the roleplay is still determined by the DM, but a good group of people sitting around having a good time and not once bring up RL situations is fun, which is the point of an RPG. Yes, you still have guidelines, but doesn't RL have guidelines? I've never had a DM say I couldn't play a well thought out character. As long as it wasn't some bogus "my guy can do this...just because" theme, I've never seen anyone have an issue playing what they wanted to play. As far as FF XIII, I haven't yet played it, but after FFVIII I pretty much gave up on the entire Final Fantasy line. I still play the originals though (Final Fantasy II being my favorite).  :D
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Mfbrew

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #27 on: May 14, 2010, 12:28:41 pm »

Is it even possible to have real moral choices in RPGs? Do any games do it?

Most JRPGs have one story that you play through.  The ones with multiple endings seem to give different kinds of cool/sucky endings depending on non moral choices.  Think Valkyrie profile or chrono trigger.

Some of the old ultima games had moral choices that didn't really impact the plot much except that if you were an asshole, you couldn't win the game at the end.

Vampire the masquerade: redemption had 3 endings depending on your humanity rating. That's probably the best example I can think of.


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Intelligent Shade of Blue

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #28 on: May 14, 2010, 01:39:17 pm »

Just to be clear, I don't hate video game RPGs. I actually enjoyed FF6-XIII AND Mass Effect/BGII/etc. I just don't think the single player game medium is really suited for a role playing experience. Moral choices and different paths are just too rudimentary to be real role-playing. I'm waiting for the day when you can have realistic conversations with AIs about the weather and the recent goblin invasion instead of being limited to black/white dialogue where you have to choose between "I hate those goblins and am going to defeat them for justice!" or "I'm off to join the gobbos, raping and pillaging along the way because I'm EVIL."
« Last Edit: May 14, 2010, 01:47:54 pm by Intelligent Shade of Blue »
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Bioware: Final Fantasy XIII Isn't An RPG
« Reply #29 on: May 14, 2010, 01:51:16 pm »

Tabletop role-playing games pretty much started with D&D. Later, Japanese RPGs started going on their own path in trying to bring the tabletop RPG gameplay to a computer. Western RPGs went a slightly different track, but the attempt was still to take tabletop gaming and translate it into a computer.

But when you say D&D is an RPG, you package a lot of ideas into that acronym. Here are some of them:

You create a character. You can choose whatever you like for your character's features, within reasonable limits. For examplem you can choose a race and class, name, gender, appearance, equipment, etc. But the game is not expected to create a custom class just for you because you want to play a Steampunk Detective.

You decide what your character will try to do. This includes dialogue. The referee (or the game programming) decides the outcome of the attempt. But he cannot tell you that you cannot try that action. The most he can do is accept that you tried to do it, but failed.

Your outcome is uncertain. Perhaps if you stand by and do nothing, the world will end. But you can choose to stand by. Or you can choose to try to save the world. But it's also possible that you can fail to save the world even if you try. If the outcome is predetermined and you cannot affect it, you are no longer playing a game. The closest such a "game" comes would be perhaps an "Interactive Movie".

If you remove any of these elements, you no longer have an RPG. You have something different, which may be valuable, but it must be classified as what it really is. A sports car may be a sweet ride, but it is not a jet plane.

Now I'd argue that today's computers are inherently unable to respond to any reasonable human request. For example, let's say you make a space shooter game where you fly sorties from space bases and planetside colonies in a sandbox environment. You include lots of different ships (maybe even a ship construction system!), various upgrades to the ship components, different weapons. There is cargo trading, market fluctuations, exploration, the ability to create your own bases and colonies, excellent AI wingmen, to the point where you can set up a little empire if you like.

But what if I want to play an engineer on a ship someone else (AI?) commands? The game can't do that, even though it's a legitimate expectation in the environment. Or maybe I want to play a drug dealer. Not a drug runner, which is just someone carrying illegal cargo. I mean going down to the colony and walking around on foot.

What if I want to play a doctor, and see what interesting things walk through the doors of the clinic? You'd need at least a detailed system for surgeries and medicines and diagnoses and such.

What if I wanted to play a repo man? Did the game forget to include mortgages on spaceships? Oops, guess that's one line of work you can't have.

And when a game leaves something like that out, it's like the referee at the table telling you "no, your character wouldn't spit in the Orc king's face like that!" It's my character, it's the role I'm playing, if I say I try to do it, then I try to do it. But in a computer game, you aren't allowed to even try it.

MMOs can be RPGs, just because the humans around you are able to respond to you on the fly. The game doesn't need to set everything up, it just needs to give you the tools necessary to do it yourself. The "game" becomes really a chat and math client for people to play with each other. But I'd call that an RPG.

A "game" like Final Fantasy has perhaps a dozen endings at most. Of those, many are clearly the "bad" ending. But a dozen outcomes is hardly enough. And your character is typically unable to do some of the most basic things, like running an inn or joining a monastery that brainwashes you because they're secretly a cult of the Rat God. See that rainspout on the side of that building? I sure hope you weren't planning on tearing that off and selling it for scrap metal, because it's an invulnerable part of the house model and there is no force in heaven or hell that will move it even one pixel.

Not to say those games can't be fun. These games, which I call Story Completion Games, can be excellent. Just like watching a particularly good movie can be fulfilling. But they are not RPGs.

I'd say that very few computer games are actually RPGs. We're starting to see it more lately. Dwarf Fortress is trying, and Roguelikes in general are very good at the attempt. But a creative player can always think of something he should be able to do but the game does not allow. Generally you don't notice because the game leaves those things out entirely, and you don't notice them. Toilets are one common example.
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