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Yes, and it should be punished under theft.

Yes, and it should be punished under copyright law.

Yes, but it shouldn't be punished.

Certain cases are crimes.

I feel ambivalent towards piracy being a crime.

No, but it should be punished.

No, it is a natural part of a consumer's routine.

No, not at all.

Other

Don't Care / View Poll

[Shades]

World of Goo had a piracy rate of aproximately 90%,

Firstly they admit that this is based on unique IPs to their leaderboard, rather than any useful stat. Secondly what has that got to do with anything? You go on to talk about the number of pirated copies that would have been sales anyway so you must realise that it's completely irrelevant even if it was a billion percent. It's the sales effect that is important.

If anything it shows the uselessness of DRM as a similar percentage is used for most games.

Besides that, if we use Ricochet as an indication, 0.1% of pirated coppies would've been normal sales. This here's a pretty nice list for making estimates (though I think it's erring a bit on the low side). If we ignore Spore for the moment, we get a download ammount of aproximately 8 million coppies. Make that 10 million to account for things not on the list. 0.1% of 10 millions is 100.000 coppies that were lost in sales. Using a lifetime price figure of 20 dollars to account for things that are naturaly cheaper and things that end up in the bargain bin, we end up with a figure of 2 million dollars worth of lost sales in 2008, counting torrents alone. Might be higher, because an estimated 10 million downloads over the total of 2008 is probably on the low end.

So with your stats, which have been increased to account for things not on the list we get 2 million dollars of lost sales in an industry worth 11.7 billion in the USA alone. That is just over one hundredth of one percent of the total, I wouldn't be surprised if that is actually less than what was lost due to product damage. It is certainly less than the estimated cost for implementing DRM.

[Neruz]

Vires also seems to have missed the point of the Ricochet article; you are never going to stop all pirating, give up now. If you manage to knock out fifty thousand pirates, you're doing amazingly well, and you just sold an extra 50 copies of the game.


Now, unless your game is worth about a thousand dollars a pop, the amount of money you had to spend on DRM and employees to police the systems that eliminated those fifty thousand pirates is going to substantially outweigh the gains from a few dozen extra sales. Worse still, if you opt for an online 'semi MMO' authentication system that does take out a large chunk of the pirates (although even AC2 has pirated versions, it's just harder), you'll probably make a few hundred, maybe even a thousand extra sales (worldwide), however you've probably had to pay at least a million to set up the authentication servers, and those servers are going to be a constant money drain as you have to update and upgrade them. Real MMO's get around the server issue by charging monthly fees, but you're not doing that, so you're boned.



Basically, it's just not cost effective to actually fight piracy. And it probably never will be. This is why piracy is not something you should be worried about as a developer or publisher, and it is this fact; that fighting piracy is costing them more money than they are gaining, is the reason why EA has finally given up.

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[Pathos]

No flaming yet. I am both proud and amazed.

[Virex]

So my question to you is, after buying a game three times, is it ok to torrent a stable version online?

Actually, you just have to buy it once, as long as you hang onto proof of the purchase.  One of my friends actually lost (won?) the million-to-one-lottery of being picked up for piracy.  He received a cease-and-desist order from Blizzard (or maybe it was the law on Blizzard's behalf, I forget) threatening legal action, with proof of his IP torrenting Diablo 2.  Except he actually bought Diablo 2 complete with serial number, and was replacing the disc he lost.  They shut up and left in defeat.

The irony of course being that Diablo 2 was one of maybe five games he ever actually paid money for.  That was the one they caught him on.

Could

World of Goo had a piracy rate of aproximately 90%,

Firstly they admit that this is based on unique IPs to their leaderboard, rather than any useful stat. Secondly what has that got to do with anything? You go on to talk about the number of pirated copies that would have been sales anyway so you must realise that it's completely irrelevant even if it was a billion percent. It's the sales effect that is important.

If anything it shows the uselessness of DRM as a similar percentage is used for most games.

I was making a point against the idea that people pirate games because they´re medicore games that they don´t want to spend money on or because of the intrusive DRM. The polar oposit of such games has a realy high percentage of pirated games, which to me indicates that people will pirate anything. That idea is reforced by what happened to the humble indy bundle. It goes to show that the `noble pirates` who only pirate medicore games and fight the fight against the big companies are a pretty small minority...

Besides that, if we use Ricochet as an indication, 0.1% of pirated coppies would've been normal sales. This here's a pretty nice list for making estimates (though I think it's erring a bit on the low side). If we ignore Spore for the moment, we get a download ammount of aproximately 8 million coppies. Make that 10 million to account for things not on the list. 0.1% of 10 millions is 100.000 coppies that were lost in sales. Using a lifetime price figure of 20 dollars to account for things that are naturaly cheaper and things that end up in the bargain bin, we end up with a figure of 2 million dollars worth of lost sales in 2008, counting torrents alone. Might be higher, because an estimated 10 million downloads over the total of 2008 is probably on the low end.

So with your stats, which have been increased to account for things not on the list we get 2 million dollars of lost sales in an industry worth 11.7 billion in the USA alone. That is just over one hundredth of one percent of the total, I wouldn't be surprised if that is actually less than what was lost due to product damage. It is certainly less than the estimated cost for implementing DRM.

Pretty much, yes. I wasn't realy arguing in favour of, or against anything. But I have a feeling my figures are a bit off, because if we assume that the amount of pirated games is 2 million and the value of the industry is 11 billion, that the downloads only equall 10% of the value of the industry, while I'd expect it to be closer to 50% or maybe even equall (remember that for many games the amount of pirated coppies equalls or even exceeds the amount of sold coppies). Another thing I am doutfull about is if the 0.1% figure I used from Riccochet translates well to high-profile games, since Riccochet's pretty low-profile and, shall we say unhyped?

[Neruz]

I would guess that the vast majority of Pirates are 'compulsive collectors', they just want to have the game and probably will never really play it. They probably toy with it for an hour or two, and then move on to something else.

[Leafsnail]

Hmm...

To be honest, I really don't know.  At all.  Piracy is bad, but attempts to police it almost always do a lot more harm than good (example: Spore.  DRM was massively unpopular, prevented reinstallation/ reformatting, and, if anything, resulted in MORE pirates being defiant.  Not to mention the expense).  It might be better to try and work around it... I suppose including actual online content is one way, or just making so that the people who play the games actually don't mind paying to support the company.

[Pathos]

I would guess that the vast majority of Pirates are 'compulsive collectors', they just want to have the game and probably will never really play it. They probably toy with it for an hour or two, and then move on to something else.

That's a bit of a generalisation with no backing. o.O

[Shades]

I would guess that the vast majority of Pirates are 'compulsive collectors', they just want to have the game and probably will never really play it. They probably toy with it for an hour or two, and then move on to something else.

That's a bit of a generalisation with no backing. o.O

True but there have been a few 'studies', and I use the term loosely because really how honestly would people answer the surveys? Anyway the studies have indicated that the average gamer (so probably not anyone on this forums) buys 3-4 games a year, where as the average pirate downloads a game every other day. There is a massive disparity ratio between the two even if these studies are orders of magnitude off.

[Pathos]

True but there have been a few 'studies', and I use the term loosely because really how honestly would people answer the surveys? Anyway the studies have indicated that the average gamer (so probably not anyone on this forums) buys 3-4 games a year, where as the average pirate downloads a game every other day. There is a massive disparity ratio between the two even if these studies are orders of magnitude off.

I think that the average gamer and the average pirate are two groups that mesh together quite well, to be honest. I personally test out games and then go buy them if they're any good.

[eerr]

Someday, videogames will cost people .30 cents each, out of the videogame tax imposed by obama.

About 60 dollars totally per person, and companies have to compete for 'most downloads' if they want to win funding from the taxes.

The money they make is based on how well they do for downloads each year.

>completely absurd, but the money works out, the organization is possible, and the piracy no longer exists
Plus each game is cheaper per person, and anybody can download however many games they want.<

[Itnetlolor]

Hmm...

To be honest, I really don't know.  At all.  Piracy is bad, but attempts to police it almost always do a lot more harm than good (example: Spore.  DRM was massively unpopular, prevented reinstallation/ reformatting, and, if anything, resulted in MORE pirates being defiant.  Not to mention the expense).  It might be better to try and work around it... I suppose including actual online content is one way, or just making so that the people who play the games actually don't mind paying to support the company.

I was willing to make that call towards Valve/Steam about how their frivolous lock-outs with no alternative solutions (in case someone was having financial problems, or were indeed hacked, but the hacker was not called out, or if they thought they were hacked, but actually overdrawn in their bank accounts, and needed to recover ASAP to pay their bills) actually encourage piracy because they read calm winds as hurricanes, and spilled water like a dam breaks. I mean, I've seen cases where even $1 chargebacks were treated like million-dollar bank fraud. There are some pissed off people angry with Valve about crap like this.

An opinion, how is it that honesty and legitimacy has more of a chance of backfiring to the consumer than piracy? I use Steam as the case. You're honest the whole time, clean record; a minor flub in accounting, a little paranoia later, and now it's taking a year to fix something that takes everyone less than a week to fix, and that's following all procedures as stated by the provider as to how to solve something, and that's the ONLY solution to the problem. No alternatives.

Simply put: I overdrafted during a sale (because my sister also forgot to cash in my check within a window of time she could have), I thought I was hacked into, I called for a chargeback of my lost funds and revoked the overdrafts as well, and even explained the situation to the bank and Valve regarding it. I return to the bank after I earned enough to recover damage from both parties (pay off the chargeback to Valve, and pay back any overdraft that might come along with it); the bank advised that that could be a bad idea considering that with the amount of time that passed, the damage could have gotten worse, and the backdraft could get worse as well. The BANK advised I seek alternative solutions with Valve to prevent my account from going all screwy, and to prevent fraud accusation from the bank as well, and also to avoid tons of unnecessary paperwork. I explain this to Valve. They won't accept any alternative solutions, no matter how much easier on them it would be. I even went as far as explaining that this is the crap that encourages piracy (but I didn't send that message yet). I even have explanations of how cutting some slack to everyone will in fact benefit everyone (especially Valve profit-wise). They're not responding.

Now I have something to toss in here; if you already bought the license to a game/product in the past, lost it or cannot access it anymore (like this stupid-ass Valve situation), would it still be considered somewhat legal to obtain the product by any other means as a means of backup? I mean, I still have my product keys for these products. So what if the acquirement of the backup was not quite legal. I still own a license of my own to prove prior ownership.

My opinion on piracy is that some cases are crimes. Other cases are justified (as far as I would consider with mine; I have my keys, but being locked out of a service (like Steam), whereas I own the games legally, I should still be able to play a downloaded copy, provided I have my key as proof.), and plenty others is not worth crying over spilt milk (abandonware anyone? Some games are collected and not played even (yes there are collector pirates that collect for the sake of collecting or archiving)). Now I do somewhat agree with selling products made "free for the provider", but not the customer of the "provider". I understand labor costs (like let's say, a series of MAME roms on DVDs or something; the price? provide the DVDs and pay for shipping yourself; provider will worry about the other details.), however, if the product being sold is a free Indie game/product, we've got problems. Not only is the product being sold not the provider's, but it's also released for the public for free, and is being sold for a price.

I'm rather indifferent about the whole piracy debate, but I do say, some cases make sense, others don't, and plenty of times they can be justified with good reasons. As for other parts of piracy, like the collectors and such, we're keeping history alive.

I mean, if not for certain 'pirates' I could'nt have found (or found out) entire series that TV stations merely threw away, whether long-lived and loved, or short-lived shows that didn't even finish a season; or series/shows completely forgotten by their original stations (*cough*classic Disney/Loony Toons*cough*WB  cartoons*cough*Classic Nickelodeon*cough*). Same could be said about games as well. I was able to recover my childhood at the price of lots and lots of waiting; compared to lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of waiting, to pay 50 bucks for 3 classic games that I don't even remember. Time has value too. So, for those that have archived our history and continued to distribute them to keep them from fading into obscurity (which is also semi-responsible for some of the past being revived and rebooted with today's stuff/qualities), I tip my hat to you.

I mean, it's nice to pass on my good experiences from the past with my family's next generation. I mean, even my nieces and nephew can tell the quality difference from classic Donald Duck cartoons with the cheeseball live-action shows that dominate the station nowadays (They actually laugh with the cartoons, and they zone-out with the live-action). I mean, you can ask a child in these recent generations who Mickey Mouse is, they'll still know, he's the logo/primary mascot for Disney; but what about his dog Pluto? "Who's that?", they'll respond, "I know who Donald Duck is, he can cast magic, and Goofy can use a shield, and is the Heavy for the team." (:facepalm:, I wasn't talking about Kingdom Hearts you dolt.). "Who's Scroodge McDuck? Who's Darkwing Duck? Who are the Rescue Rangers?" and so on... I am curious, are these kids even aware that most of the artists that have plagued our radio stations for a good amount of time came from The Mickey Mouse Club or KIDS Incorporated (not a fan of either show, and considering as time passes, these shows get worse. Get ready to destroy your radios in the next few years.) that aired on that station as well? And this is just ONE channel. I still have a handful more.

...So yeah. Again, I tip my hat off to those collector 'pirates' for keeping history alive with their provisions/videos/torrents. And also to sites that talk about them, even if in satire.

[Jreengus]

I was making a point against the idea that people pirate games because they´re medicore games that they don´t want to spend money on or because of the intrusive DRM. The polar oposit of such games has a realy high percentage of pirated games, which to me indicates that people will pirate anything. That idea is reforced by what happened to the humble indy bundle. It goes to show that the `noble pirates` who only pirate medicore games and fight the fight against the big companies are a pretty small minority...

What happened to The Humble Indy Bundle? Other than it making 1.2 mil.

[Sean Mirrsen]

The Humble Indie Bundle still necessitates a transaction, as was already noted. For example, I have no means of making such a transaction, at all, whatever the cost may be. If I could, I would've long since donated something to further DF's development, but I can't do even that. So, if I ever wanted to get that bundle, I'd have no option except putting on an eyepatch and exercising pilferage.

[Virex]

I was making a point against the idea that people pirate games because they´re medicore games that they don´t want to spend money on or because of the intrusive DRM. The polar oposit of such games has a realy high percentage of pirated games, which to me indicates that people will pirate anything. That idea is reforced by what happened to the humble indy bundle. It goes to show that the `noble pirates` who only pirate medicore games and fight the fight against the big companies are a pretty small minority...

What happened to The Humble Indy Bundle? Other than it making 1.2 mil.

Because those offering it didn't think they needed to put protection on the server (who's gonna pirate something worth a penny anyway?), someone found a realy easy backdoor that only needed a single CLI command. As a result 25% of the downloads from the official site were illegal.