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Author Topic: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea - One Year Later  (Read 110585 times)

Azzuro

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #960 on: July 29, 2010, 05:21:30 am »

I think the problem is, this responsibility is not clear cut.  Such things can be implied, but disputed.  Whatever is more convenient at the time.

That's right. The only reason a system of accountability works is that everyone knows what they are responsible for and that it will cost them when they don't do their jobs.

You two make it sound like the intent is punishment or scapegoating. You can't punish someone for letting something fall apart if they never had personal responsibility in the first place. The point is not always having someone to punish, it's everyone knowing that their asses are on the line so these things don't happen!

Sorry, I thought the intent was clearer than that. The reason for heavy, equitable punishment for crimes (including crimes of negligence) is not to make people feel better or to have a scapegoat; it's to deter people from committing those crimes. But no one was made responsible for anything here, which leaves us with two conclusions:

1. No one is personally responsible after the fact, because they were not made so before the fact. It would indeed be unfair to hold individuals responsible when it comes to punishment for this debacle.

2. No one was personally invested in doing things right because there were nil or negligible consequences for failure, even catastrophic failure. These people still have their jobs, assets, and health. People are not good, kind, or anything but self-serving on their own, especially when they can avoid responsibility for their actions through anonymity or by any other method. They had no good enough reason to care properly, because they had nothing at stake.

Actually, even if people are made aware of the fact that they are personally responsible for something going wrong, it won't work with a group of people. To use an example: Suppose that there is a team of people who have a report to hand in by the deadline, or else they're fired. Even if they are made aware of this fact, chances are that each person will wait for another to start writing, or else assume that their teammates have done it already. This also applies to oil wells, each worker will either assume that their coworkers have already checked the equipment or will wait until told to do so. The only way your plan could work is if you personally told each worker that they alone were responsible for the well, and made sure that they did not find out that there was shared responsibility with the rest.
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The Architect

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #961 on: July 29, 2010, 07:11:26 pm »

No, when the stakes are high, people will take action.

If your balls are on the line, you check and you double check. You don't trust your coworkers to have done your work for you.

Besides, we're not talking about who placed the sugar in the wrong area of the break room. We're talking about making a report on a faulty part rather than choosing to believe that someone else already has, or (in an engineer or overseer's case) reporting a bad design, and refusing to go ahead with bad plans because the person who will pay the price for failure is you.

Last, the term "personal responsibility" cannot apply to a group. That is specifically why I used those words, because they don't have the vague meaning you imply.
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Azzuro

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #962 on: July 30, 2010, 08:27:10 am »

Besides, we're not talking about who placed the sugar in the wrong area of the break room. We're talking about making a report on a faulty part rather than choosing to believe that someone else already has, or (in an engineer or overseer's case) reporting a bad design, and refusing to go ahead with bad plans because the person who will pay the price for failure is you.

When you've checked the same part for a thousand times and nothing has happened to it, people are naturally inclined to get lazy. It's easy to assume that everything is running as normal, especially if the faulty part in question is buried deep in the system. In the case where said part is part of an obscure emergency system that has not seen use for years, people will be even more tempted to skimp on testing, and no amount of punishment will ever cause people to be ever-vigilant, only more vigilant for a period of time. Punishments aren't real until they happen to you or your coworker.

Also, in the case of "refusing to go ahead with bad plans", the superior can just fire you for refusing to work and hire a new guy, who will presumably be much more willing to go ahead with the plan than you.
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Zangi

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #963 on: July 30, 2010, 09:30:18 am »

Also, in the case of "refusing to go ahead with bad plans", the superior can just fire you for refusing to work and hire a new guy, who will presumably be much more willing to go ahead with the plan than you.

Truth. 

Can't/won't do the job?  We will get someone else.

Won't sign-off on X?  We will find someone else.
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Nivim

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #964 on: July 30, 2010, 05:11:45 pm »

 So there are really people out there, that when told by an expert something's a bad idea, will automatically go find someone that tells them it's a good idea? It's just every time I run it through my mind, it sounds totally insane, and unrealistic it would exist in the working world.
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Zangi

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #965 on: July 30, 2010, 05:17:59 pm »

So there are really people out there, that when told by an expert something's a bad idea, will automatically go find someone that tells them it's a good idea? It's just every time I run it through my mind, it sounds totally insane, and unrealistic it would exist in the working world.
Technically, its referred to as "Getting different opinions."   Its like shopping, find someone who has the 'opinion' you want and then buy him/her

There are many 'specialists' and 'experts' you can consult who may say something very different from another.
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The Architect

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #966 on: July 30, 2010, 06:35:04 pm »

That's all hypothetically possible, but I still feel that those posting don't get the idea. Obviously that is quite a good reason to post.

Easy example that may quickly clarify this

If you want an example of this system in our modern American society, the best I can give you is medicine and medical malpractice suits. The system is badly broken, but it does partially serve its original purpose: Doctors won't neglect to give you a chest exam after a car crash because they know that if you have a torn artery (which can't be felt or detected otherwise), you will go home and bleed to death, and the doctor will get sued out of his pants. Granted, in this case the doctor didn't kill you by blatant negligence, and the punishment may be too high. But you get the point: the doctor is personally accountable, so he's not going to risk f*ing it up.
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RedWarrior0

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #967 on: July 30, 2010, 08:16:05 pm »

Oh, who livesd in a pineapple under the sea?
SPONGEBOB SQUAREPANTS!
Not anymore, thanks to BP...
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Azzuro

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #968 on: July 30, 2010, 11:14:39 pm »

The point is that you make it cost the individual when he puts others at risk. The new worker is still liable for the same things the old one is; if there's a 30% chance of critical failure resulting in deaths that would cause him to suffer an equitable punishment then I really doubt he's going to "sign off" on it.

Beside thinking of obscure hypothetical cases in which a company or superior doesn't care about safety or security at all (or the fact that they'd also be punished), is there an objection to this system? I mean, it's worked from time immemorial. We're just too stupid to employ it in our modern corporate structure.

Obviously this system wouldn't work if those with authority are enforcing a lack of safety and good work rather than enforcing safety and good work (which is what you just suggested), but that's silly. There are several objections,

#1 being: if those in authority within a company or corporate structure don't want safety and good work, then having a system of responsibility is still important. No engineer is going to put his life on the line to OK a project that can result in deaths and equitable punishment for him. Equitable punishment in the case of mass murder by neglect likely being death.Wouldn't you rather work in a burger joint than bet your life on bad odds for a paycheck? Or even decently good odds, repeatedly during your career?

#2 is that there is little to no impetus for being an idiot once you are responsible for the consequences. Corporate is demanding that you cut corners fora little more profit or they'll fire you? Each person on the chain of command is directly responsible, and all orders for constructions and large projects are heavily documented. They're not likely to fire you, and if they do then who would want the job? Not only that, but everything in relation to these projects is always heavily documented and you can take them to court, collecting a hefty sum or even lifetime pension, not to mention that they'd be penalized for criminal negligence and several other broken laws and statutes.

This is the sort of thing our court system and laws are supposed to be doing. Right now they are focused on redistributing money in some sort of pseudo-socialistic welfare-healthcare-nicesoundingwordforbadfiscalpolicythatputsusindebt system. They're supposed to protect the rights of individuals and organizations, while maintaining a stable free market economy through regulation and court intervention.

To address your points paragraph by paragraph:

1. The point I put earlier said that in case you refused to work, the company could fire you as an example to the rest of the workers. I think you're underestimating the fear of losing their jobs that most people have, especially in this dire economic situation. Also, I doubt that most oil well managers understand the workings of a drilling rig intimately, otherwise why would they have to hire engineers? I don't think that engineers are required to sign every new proposal, merely inform their superiors if something goes wrong.

2. Believe it or not, most companies would not hesitate to pay employees minimum wage and send them to the Arctic without gear if they thought it would increase profits. A company is built around profit - that's the very definition of one, and it's only the laws that prevent them from rampantly abusing human rights. Even with laws in place, companies still do all kinds of unsafe work knowingly.

3. I wasn't suggesting that companies were trying to actively enforce a lack of safety, it merely comes about as a result of the drive for profit. Sorry if I was unclear in my earlier statements.

4. People will want money less than companies do, but they still want it all the same. Besides, the odds we're talking about here aren't that big, maybe about 0.1% of accidents every try. Looking at the sequence of events leading up to this event, they might have done it a few million times on oil wells all over the Gulf, and it was just this time that they got unlucky.

5. Unfortunately for you, the documentation in this case is likely to be kept (and altered) by the company, rather than an impartial government agency. It is only in the case of lawsuit or accident that the government agencies come around to check. If you were to keep your own documentation, it would hardly be admissible as court evidence, unfair as that may sound. Besides, multimillion-dollar companies like BP can afford to hire whole teams of lawyers and wait out the case, meaning that unless you too are a millionaire, you are unlikely to not go bankrupt during the proceedings.

5. I actually agree with you on this point.
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Nivim

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #969 on: July 30, 2010, 11:18:34 pm »

So there are really people out there, that when told by an expert something's a bad idea, will automatically go find someone that tells them it's a good idea? It's just every time I run it through my mind, it sounds totally insane, and unrealistic it would exist in the working world.
Technically, its referred to as "Getting different opinions."   Its like shopping, find someone who has the 'opinion' you want and then buy him/her

There are many 'specialists' and 'experts' you can consult who may say something very different from another.

 I know. I meant it in the sense that the person's decision making process isn't determined by negative opinions, only positive ones. It's the sort of thinking, that when confronted with uncertain or varied opinions, will decide the first or most optimistic one is correct.
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Duuvian

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #970 on: July 30, 2010, 11:55:33 pm »

Has anyone noticed the numerous oil spills in the last two weeks? It's like the oil is attacking!  :o

It's a good thing the oil companies are destroying this valuable resource, lest it consume us instead of the other way around!
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RedWarrior0

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #971 on: July 31, 2010, 02:59:43 am »

In Soviet Russia, oil consume you!
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #972 on: August 02, 2010, 01:24:45 am »

Update. BP believes that they will be able to plug the hole, so to speak.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/01/AR2010080103530.html?hpid=topnews
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Sergius

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #973 on: August 06, 2010, 01:59:42 pm »

However, I will say that BP, in my experience, has a much higher safety standard than most.  The company I am working for RIGHT NOW has dropped their bids on contracts solely because BP got involved,  and that increased our safety overhead.

BP has had over 760 "egregious and willful" safety violations in the past 3-4 years. Now granted, we don't know if that's a lot in context, so let's compare it to the other worst offenders:

Spoiler: Sunoco (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: ConocoPhillips (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Citgo (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Exxon (click to show/hide)
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RAM

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #974 on: August 06, 2010, 09:12:30 pm »

Msicitpecs touthiw atad sith gnikat tsnaiga noitauc ylpmis I, deripsnart has chus tath evieleb to nosear any evah I tath ton... Erugif tath ecneulfni tghim saib of tnouma naiterc a tath dnim in reab.
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