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[Aqizzar]

You keep saying shit like that, as if it's some immutable law of the universe that's being subverted.  You know whose job it is to punish people who do bad things?  The government's, that's whose.  But you don't want the government to have that kind of power, you're waiting for some celestial deity or superhero to do it; because if the government does what you're asking for, suddenly it's evil and tyrannical and one small step to Nazism.

You can have rules, or you can not have rules, and there's a lot of gray between the two of them.  But there's only one party that can do that job, and you have to let them do that job.

[LordMelvin]

<snip> execute the ****ing architect.

Are you sure that that's the precise phrasing you want to be using here?

[ChairmanPoo]

<snip> execute the ****ing architect.

Are you sure that that's the precise phrasing you want to be using here?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[RAM]

Orez llits is orez flah...

[Azzuro]

Some people know how to get this **** right. It's called personal accountability, and it's also a very simple concept. A very ancient, very straightforward, very reasonable concept. I'm not holding up Japan as the model for anything else, but they understand this concept: someone ****s up, they cut their fingers off or you castrate them. They're personally responsible for their "responsibilities". And I don't mean putting the blame on someone; I mean that there are freakin' consequences to being an incompetent, selfish dick. You're truly responsible for the things you have been given authority over and responsibility for, and you had better care because your butt is the one on the line. 12 people die because you wanted to line your pockets, then you should die as well. If the house collapses, execute the ****ing architect.

Actually, the problem here as I see it is that this disaster cannot be said to have been the fault of a single person alone. Just like in an aircraft crash, several things have to go unnoticed  and break before the aircraft crashes. A screw goes wrong, maintenance personnel get lazy, the aircraft inspectors get lazy, the airline decides to make more by sending the plane out longer, resulting in the crash. Similarly, in this incident, it was the fault of the safety inspector who relaxed on the job, the managers who cut costs on equipment, the oil workers who ignored obvious signs of danger, the engineers who saw it but didn't inform their superiors. So whose fault is it? Are we going to punish everyone for this? In my opinion, the best route of action would be to fire the person or people who were responsible for managing the well, because it was them who instilled this sense of "drill too greedily and too deep".

Also, in a somewhat-related tangent, does anyone think big companies essentially always win in legal battles. To me, it seems that court cases these days are not about evidence and justice, they are about whose lawyers can dig up obscure laws and delay rulings long enough for the other party to get bankrupt or settle out of court. In that sense, big companies like BP will almost always win against individuals, simply because they have much more financial resources at their command.

[Aqizzar]

So, in case anyone hasn't heard just yet - Tony Hayward steps down as BP CEO.  Some American guy is taking Hayward's job while he goes to some drilling operation in Siberia, and BP also posted a $17billion quarterly loss (may be a different number, I'm not sure).

Just so you know.

[Shades]

Hayward will get a pension fund, worth 10.8 million pounds ($16.8 million) at the end of last year, as well as a year’s salary of about 1 million pounds.

Nice to know he's well looked after for his wonderful handling of the company ...

[JoshuaFH]

It'd be funny if they garnished his salary.

[Outcast Orange]

Issue:

The people who work at BP gas stations are screwed.

Not because BP might go down, but because of something more malicious,
 devised by the common man of the U.S.

Every BP I saw today had an empty lot, with only a couple parked cars.
People have stopped buying from BP gas stations.

I feel horrible for the poor foreign man working inside, who doesn't even understand why nobody is buying the gas.
He just looked so happy to see me come in and buy some price-cut gasoline.

[Zangi]

Some people know how to get this **** right. It's called personal accountability, and it's also a very simple concept. A very ancient, very straightforward, very reasonable concept. I'm not holding up Japan as the model for anything else, but they understand this concept: someone ****s up, they cut their fingers off or you castrate them. They're personally responsible for their "responsibilities". And I don't mean putting the blame on someone; I mean that there are freakin' consequences to being an incompetent, selfish dick. You're truly responsible for the things you have been given authority over and responsibility for, and you had better care because your butt is the one on the line. 12 people die because you wanted to line your pockets, then you should die as well. If the house collapses, execute the ****ing architect.

Actually, the problem here as I see it is that this disaster cannot be said to have been the fault of a single person alone. Just like in an aircraft crash, several things have to go unnoticed  and break before the aircraft crashes. A screw goes wrong, maintenance personnel get lazy, the aircraft inspectors get lazy, the airline decides to make more by sending the plane out longer, resulting in the crash. Similarly, in this incident, it was the fault of the safety inspector who relaxed on the job, the managers who cut costs on equipment, the oil workers who ignored obvious signs of danger, the engineers who saw it but didn't inform their superiors. So whose fault is it? Are we going to punish everyone for this? In my opinion, the best route of action would be to fire the person or people who were responsible for managing the well, because it was them who instilled this sense of "drill too greedily and too deep".

I think the problem is, this responsibility is not clear cut.  Such things can be implied, but disputed.  Whatever is more convenient at the time.

"I don't look after X machinery, it is not my responsibility."
"I don't look after the employee(s) looking over X machinery, it is not my responsibility."
"I don't look after the manager of X location, it is not my responsibility."

People don't like to be personally responsible when things go bad, but they'll take credit when it goes good.

@Outcast Orange, how cheap is that gas?  Compared to the normal price around where you are?

[Outcast Orange]

Almost a dime cheaper at some locations, which makes my eyes pop out.

EDIT:

This.

[Greiger]

Yea I get my gas at a local BP gas station all the time.  I chat with the dude that runs it now and then.  I'm not sure of his nationality, but he speaks perfect English and he's a really nice guy.  A few years ago I told him about a spill somebody left for him in the back of the store once and he gave me the soda I was about to buy on the house.

I still get my gas there, and the place is indeed empty most of the time now.  I don't know how connected to the main company those little gas stations are, but it can't be all that big of a connection.  Kinda sucks about how the big company's screwup trickles down to the little guy trying to support his family like that.

[Aqizzar]

They're not connected by much; independent McDonald's franchises have more stringent requirements than a gas station to use the company's label.  I think it's just an agreement to be supplied by that company and put their name on your sign.

So yeah, those guys are all boned.  And that's a damn shame.  Hope they can find other franchisers fast.

[Phmcw]

It's how capitalistic security work : you've done wrong or have done business with he wrong poeple, then you're screwed and it's all good, because you will be more careful next time.
Not only is this unfair because face it, these kind of information isn't readily available, but it won't work because this kind of disaster doesn't happen often : once the shock is gone, it will be back to business as usual, and in ten or twenty year, all shall be forgotten.

Edit: to clarify it's all a matter of scale : this principle work when the actors have close to equal strength : for instance, both bp and the company that owned the station shall be ostracized, and it's all good : both where able to act on the other, or to choose easily another trade partner. Not so much with independent bp retailer.

[The Architect]

I think the problem is, this responsibility is not clear cut.  Such things can be implied, but disputed.  Whatever is more convenient at the time.

That's right. The only reason a system of accountability works is that everyone knows what they are responsible for and that it will cost them when they don't do their jobs.

You two make it sound like the intent is punishment or scapegoating. You can't punish someone for letting something fall apart if they never had personal responsibility in the first place. The point is not always having someone to punish, it's everyone knowing that their asses are on the line so these things don't happen!

Sorry, I thought the intent was clearer than that. The reason for heavy, equitable punishment for crimes (including crimes of negligence) is not to make people feel better or to have a scapegoat; it's to deter people from committing those crimes. But no one was made responsible for anything here, which leaves us with two conclusions:

1. No one is personally responsible after the fact, because they were not made so before the fact. It would indeed be unfair to hold individuals responsible when it comes to punishment for this debacle.

2. No one was personally invested in doing things right because there were nil or negligible consequences for failure, even catastrophic failure. These people still have their jobs, assets, and health. People are not good, kind, or anything but self-serving on their own, especially when they can avoid responsibility for their actions through anonymity or by any other method. They had no good enough reason to care properly, because they had nothing at stake.