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Author Topic: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea - One Year Later  (Read 110457 times)

Zangi

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #735 on: June 27, 2010, 08:53:54 pm »

Corporations are people too, with political rights.

Too bad it isn't simple to shut them down...
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nenjin

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #736 on: June 27, 2010, 08:59:19 pm »

They don't need to be shutdown. The people making decisions need to get prosecuted, hopefully get convicted, their subordinates or those that don't face criminal prosecution take up leadership, and go back to business remembering that you get burned when you fly too high.
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smjjames

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #737 on: June 27, 2010, 09:02:28 pm »

They don't need to be shutdown. The people making decisions need to get prosecuted, hopefully get convicted, their subordinates or those that don't face criminal prosecution take up leadership, and go back to business remembering that you get burned when you fly too high.

Maybe dig too deep would be more apt here.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #738 on: June 27, 2010, 09:32:06 pm »

I don't think it's that crazy to ask for the responsible parties to be prosecuted
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LordMelvin

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #739 on: June 27, 2010, 09:50:23 pm »

They don't need to be shutdown. The people making decisions need to get prosecuted, hopefully get convicted, their subordinates or those that don't face criminal prosecution take up leadership, and go back to business remembering that you get burned when you fly too high.

Maybe dig too deep would be more apt here.

The Beepeas delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke, there in the darkness of Mexcog-ulf... shadow and flame...
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RedWarrior0

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #740 on: June 27, 2010, 10:07:35 pm »

"Well, something dark that can be ignited. Close enough."

Anyone else want oil in DF now?
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alway

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #741 on: June 27, 2010, 10:09:23 pm »

They don't need to be shutdown. The people making decisions need to get prosecuted, hopefully get convicted, their subordinates or those that don't face criminal prosecution take up leadership, and go back to business remembering that you get burned when you fly too high.
Maybe dig too deep would be more apt here.
The Beepeas delved too greedily and too deep. You know what they awoke, there in the darkness of Mexcog-ulf... shadow and flame...
And the firey-spirited Congressional hearings. But lo! Out strides their magnificent hero, Tony Hayward, "Slayer of Puppies," to defend the fortress! He is clad in armor created from "I don't know" combined with "I wasn't aware there was a spill!" The strongest material known to dwarfkind! He defended the fort against the Congresssional fire, albiet without managing to slay a single one of them. He acted so bravely, he was awarded a luxury room aboard the Floating Tavern, a structure built over the nearby ocean for the purpose of relaxation and to prevent Tony Hayward, "Slayer of Puppies," from throwing a tantrum due to long patrol recently.

I think he earned that title, what do you think? :D
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #742 on: June 27, 2010, 11:53:44 pm »

Even though it resulted in the largest environmental disaster in US history
Subjective. There are environmental disasters on US soil that have created longer-lasting consequences and resulted in more people evacuated than this one. Also US history stretches back to 1776, which encompasses a lot of time. To date, i'd say Mt. Tambora in 1816 is a bigger "environmental disaster" than the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.

Let's call it "The largest Oil spill on US Soil in living memory."
Wait, that one is wrong too...

The problem here is that corporations are given rights granted to individuals. What gives a corporation the right to free speech? Why should they have any right at all to give funds to a US politician

But here's the kicker you who are calling for crucification are forgetting, the US government sits on a hill in a swamp! There are slippery slopes everywhere. Let's take the above example, my statement that Corporations do not deserve Free speech.

A Newspaper is a corporate entity. If it does not have free speech as an entity, you could claim anything you disagree with isn't about "freedom of press", but about the free speech of the corporate entity. This is also true for other media outlets. We are currently at a certain elevation on the hill. You propose we jog down a few feet and stop? What makes you certain we stop? And why, since we went down once before , wouldn't we go down again when we were annoyed with something else?

Let's view the other angle. BP stands for "BRITISH petroleum". They have no requirement to be anywhere near the US. I don't know how people here feel, but I knew exactly what my previous employer had in connection to BP.

Land Services Inc. was my previous employer. They do rights issues for pipelines and power lines and stuff. They did such rights for several pipeline companies that shipped fluids across the united states. BP was one of their customers.

So BP pays this other company to ship petroleum products across the USA. This company uses this money to expand it's infrastructure. In expanding it's infrastructure, it hires all kinds of contractors to deal with a variety of issues. You are talking about HUNDREDS of jobs just to distribute the oil. This doesn't count the thousands for processing it, selling it, or second-use that wouldn't exist without it. This is the "Car companies are too big to fail" argument. You kill it off, you cost thousands of jobs. You start executing executives, you have a situation where executives would rather go elsewhere. We aren't just talking about BP either. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of different people. Nobody would want to head any operations in the USA. Small businesses would be afraid to grow much bigger because it then puts them in a situation where they could be KILLED because of a fuckup by a employee.

Do you guys honestly believe the CEO of BP was sitting down while they proposed the Deepwater Horizon platform going "Well, let's use sub-standard materials here in this section! It'll save us a fortune!"
Likely several engineers came to him with mumbo-jumbo he didn't understand at all and he asked "Is there a way to get it under budget?" and they said yes.

Quote from: Dr. Robert B. Gilbert, a University of Texas engineering professor.
As engineers, our code of ethics, our No. 1 canon, is to put public health and safety first. It's really, really hard to do that in the real world.

From what I've seen from emails and messages, it was standard communications about any kind of problematic issue. Take, for example, this:



This is the e-mail that is supposedly warning of the disaster six days before it occurred. It was a statement that this well wasn't coming out perfectly to plan, but still within the parameters they designed it for. So, should Brian P. Morel be killed? He was on the construction team. I assure you that he knew about anything that was sub-standard.

The problem occurred because we are using techniques designed mostly for shallow-water drilling in deep water. How can you communicate to executives that this is even an issue? Tell it to a 6 year old on the street and it probably wouldn't raise any alarm bells with them unless you let them know that something like this can occur.

So we have a few choices. Start a bunch of executions of people no more informed than a 6 year old, Execute the people who had to make the best of the situation like Brian P. Morel, or accept that history is a continued chain of major messups that has to be examined and memorized and used to prevent similar disasters, and just make BP pay for the research that will result in the next company -not- destroying our natural world.

20 BILLION is a lot of money. It will keep many citizens employed for a long time. This spill has already furthered our understanding of deep water operations. If it is insufficient, we should certainly continue to make BP pay to fix the problem. 20 Billion is more than the USA spends on environmental cleanup as it is. In fact, it's about twice what the USA spends for the entire nation per year.

Exactly how do you propose to dole out executions? My city was responsible for some major environmental disasters itself.
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So, let's execute the CSU board! Some nice guys in it, but meh. We gotta start the precedent somewhere if we wanna get BP!
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... if someone dies TOUGH LUCK. YOU SHOULD HAVE PAYED ATTENTION DURING ALL THE DAMNED DODGING DEMONSTRATIONS!

RAM

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #743 on: June 28, 2010, 12:09:30 am »

I don't support execution as a punishment. But I have no issue with standard criminal proceeding being applied to these executives. If they have the knowledge of a six year old then they should excuse themselves from making these decisions. They get massive amounts of money, for this they are expected to responsible for maintaining their company. If people deliberately* concealed things from them then they cannot be held accountable. But otherwise, regardless of their knowledge on the matter, they maintained an environment in which the safe standards were disregarded, and they accepted full responsibility for it with their jobs...

Of course, this is all a setup by the CIA to distract the public's attention...
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #744 on: June 28, 2010, 12:19:54 am »

Of course, this is all a setup by the CIA to distract the public's attention...

Yes, clearly the CIA doesn't want us to know about how Colorado Springs is dumping Sewage in Pueblo's drinking water.
Them CSU executives! At least they are safe from retaliation, since it is illegal for Pueblo to dump sewage in Colorado Springs, no matter what Colorado Springs is doing to them with all the force of law the City can muster.
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... if someone dies TOUGH LUCK. YOU SHOULD HAVE PAYED ATTENTION DURING ALL THE DAMNED DODGING DEMONSTRATIONS!

AtomicPaperclip

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #745 on: June 28, 2010, 12:32:57 am »

BP hired the company that drilled and fucked up, who hired a company to pour concrete and fucked up.

Obviously if BP is paying for it they're going to do everything they can to fix it.

Also, cities should never be built below sea level, especially next to an ocean.
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Grakelin

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #746 on: June 28, 2010, 12:41:44 am »

What will they be charged for if they're prosecuted, exactly? Negligence resulting in animal death? If negligently destroying the environment was a federal crime, BP Oil would never have gotten the chance to spill oil in the first place.
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alway

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #747 on: June 28, 2010, 12:57:30 am »

Quote
The cement and layers of casing are normally quite strong, Van Nieuwenhuise said. But with the BP well, there are several weak spots that the highly pressurized oil could exploit. BP ran out of casing sections before it hit the reservoir of oil, so it switched to using something called liner for the remainder of the well, which isn't as strong. The joints between two sections of liner pipe and the joint where the liner pipe meets the casing could be weak, Van Nieuwenhuise said.
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/06/bps-blowout-preventer-is-leaning-and.html
Oh for crying out loud... IS THERE NOTHING THEY PAID FULL PRICE FOR?????
Aside from the Yacht I mean.
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smjjames

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #748 on: June 28, 2010, 01:06:10 am »

Quote from: from article linked above
Money-saving measures BP took while designing the Macondo well in the Gulf of Mexico appear to have dogged efforts to bring the massive oil spill under control.

Aaand, their safety issues come back to bite them in the ass, HARD. No surprise there.
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nenjin

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Re: There's a Hole in the Bottom of the Sea
« Reply #749 on: June 28, 2010, 04:11:09 am »

This is really one of those threads people need to read through before posting in. Or even re-read.

Quote
The problem here is that corporations are given rights granted to individuals. What gives a corporation the right to free speech?

#1 - What does Free Speech have to do with this at all?
#2 - If you're even in the ballpark of disagreeing about what agency capture means, the hookers and blow furnished to government officials should make it quite clear.

Quote
You are talking about HUNDREDS of jobs just to distribute the oil. This doesn't count the thousands for processing it, selling it, or second-use that wouldn't exist without it. This is the "Car companies are too big to fail" argument. You kill it off, you cost thousands of jobs. You start executing executives, you have a situation where executives would rather go elsewhere. We aren't just talking about BP either. We are talking about hundreds of thousands of different people. Nobody would want to head any operations in the USA. Small businesses would be afraid to grow much bigger because it then puts them in a situation where they could be KILLED because of a fuckup by a employee.

Why? Prosecuting individuals doesn't affect their oil operations. Things are going to fall apart because 'top executives' go to jail? The whole oil infrastructure is going to collapse? Because they can't call meetings? Because they don't have junior vice presidents, senior vice presidents, Chief Executive Officers, Assistant Chief Executive officers, and about a billion people waiting to move up the management chain?

Mmmmmm no. Will oil giants think twice about investing in the U.S. if we actually hold them accountable? Maybe. But we've long accepted a lower standard of accountability in return for business. That's a mentality we have always bitched about, and yet when the chance to do something about it shows up.....people get cold feet.

And if oil is such a rare freaking resource, it's time the oil companies start making some 'compromises' for the thing they crave. Namely, drilling and operating their wells to the highest safety spec there is.

Quote
Do you guys honestly believe the CEO of BP was sitting down while they proposed the Deepwater Horizon platform going "Well, let's use sub-standard materials here in this section! It'll save us a fortune!"

The evidence points that way, yes.

Quote
Likely several engineers came to him with mumbo-jumbo he didn't understand at all and he asked "Is there a way to get it under budget?" and they said yes.

And OSHA is just citing them the # of violations they have for spilled coffee and poor lighting? Their own subcontractors, their own engineers, the government and others have all been warning them.

And for the last time, the execution thing is a joke by all but the most extreme, and you're raging at an almost non-existent view point.

Quote
What will they be charged for if they're prosecuted, exactly? Negligence resulting in animal death? If negligently destroying the environment was a federal crime, BP Oil would never have gotten the chance to spill oil in the first place.

Uh, the people that died when the well blew up? Have we gone so far along this thing that everyone is forgetting workers died in addition to all the environmental damage?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 04:23:20 am by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti
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