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Author Topic: So many minerals is not fun  (Read 3896 times)

Ilmoran

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2010, 01:54:28 pm »

Quote from: inorganic_stone_mineral raw file
[INORGANIC:HEMATITE]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:STONE_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:hematite][DISPLAY_COLOR:4:7:0][TILE:156]
[ENVIRONMENT:SEDIMENTARY:VEIN:100]
[ENVIRONMENT:IGNEOUS_EXTRUSIVE:VEIN:100]
[ITEM_SYMBOL:'*']
[METAL_ORE:IRON:100]
[SOLID_DENSITY:5100]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:8]
[IS_STONE]
[MELTING_POINT:12736]

Change the bold numbers for reduced frequency.  5 minutes of your time for the desired results.

Doesn't seem to work properly in .31.  Consider the people running into star sapphires left and right:  Those have a 1% chance to appear in a cluster of regular sapphires, but people are reporting them in every cluster of sapphires.

A better temporary solution might be to change, say, all CLUSTER to VEIN, all VEIN to CLUSTER_SMALL, and all CLUSTER_SMALL to CLUSTER_ONE (or leave them as CLUSTER_SMALL).  This will reduce the amount you run into at a given time.  There will still be a large number of occurances, but each occurance will be smaller (300+ to about 40 for cluter to vein, 40 to 6 for vein to small cluster, and 6 to 1 for "cluster one").
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Lord Darkstar

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2010, 02:00:13 pm »

I don't have a problem with the minerals, other than I've found too many sites without iron and without flux. Oh, and just small amounts of copper without any tin.

If you got a problem with a world, gen another one. It won't turn out as friendly, perfect, or warm.
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Vulkanis

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2010, 02:15:40 pm »

It has its pro's and cons but usually its to allow you to have more access to certain crafting materials like iron. But because invaders tend to bring enough weapons and arms with them you can simply melt those down and refashion them never even needing to mine in the first place which annoys me to an extent. Also the combat system does annoy me as well. Generally forts seem to be defended by a group of undefeatable badasses (champions) and sieges tend to be irrelevent because they will either get slaughtered in droves or never be able to attack in the first place because you can simply wall your self off. But that is offtopic.
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Hyndis

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2010, 02:57:09 pm »

It has its pro's and cons but usually its to allow you to have more access to certain crafting materials like iron. But because invaders tend to bring enough weapons and arms with them you can simply melt those down and refashion them never even needing to mine in the first place which annoys me to an extent. Also the combat system does annoy me as well. Generally forts seem to be defended by a group of undefeatable badasses (champions) and sieges tend to be irrelevent because they will either get slaughtered in droves or never be able to attack in the first place because you can simply wall your self off. But that is offtopic.

At the moment this does not work. There is a nasty CTD bug relating to melting in 31.03, which means goblinite is not currently a usable resource.  :(

Megabeasts are very hit or miss. Some megabeasts are pushovers and can be killed by a kitten. Or you can get a bronze colossus.
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G-Flex

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2010, 03:17:47 pm »


This is still an early, buggy, test release.

It appears that Today made everything very common for testing purposes, so that you can make sure all the new material properties work right, and help tweak their values.

Once things stabilize, I'm sure he'll bring it back to near the former scarcity.

Yes i have to agree, this is beta testing(or alpha, i forget)

Im 100% sure the reason why toady added in alot more gem and mineral spawns was for testing purposes.

You can however go into the object files and change stuff around so not as much spawns :)

I would love to agree with this (and would also love to say that the same applies to migrants being so absurdly common/skilled), but so far it's just conjecture. Also, as it has been said, you can't really do anything about this in the raws.
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Lord Darkstar

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2010, 03:37:23 pm »

It has its pro's and cons but usually its to allow you to have more access to certain crafting materials like iron. But because invaders tend to bring enough weapons and arms with them you can simply melt those down and refashion them never even needing to mine in the first place which annoys me to an extent. Also the combat system does annoy me as well. Generally forts seem to be defended by a group of undefeatable badasses (champions) and sieges tend to be irrelevent because they will either get slaughtered in droves or never be able to attack in the first place because you can simply wall your self off. But that is offtopic.

Not true. First, there is a melting bug in 31.03, so melting things tends to CTD. Second, if you don't have a goblin civilization nearby an embarkation, then you don't get goblins or kobalds--- you just get megabeasts/titans. Even in worlds where there are goblins civs, if they aren't nearby, they will never trouble you. Great maps for megaconstructions, unless you are missing things like magma safe material, flux, and other basic resources. Which happens.

A well equipped military (ie, steel weapons, steel armor) can take care of most things. A starting fortress will get its dwarven butt kicked by the even a moderate threat (I've had DEER kill civilian dwarves). So we will just have to play accordingly, until the balance changes again. Or, you can go back to 28.40d and wait for the next balance change.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2010, 04:32:16 pm »

 I'd love to see adjustable scarcity levels.

I'd also like to see a greater variety of minerals, in different forms. How about gold crystals? Or maybe some different varieties of emeralds? In real life, gems of a particular hue may only be found in a single small deposit, in the entire world.

Metals, for that matter, can be naturally alloyed, in all sorts of interesting ways.

For that matter, it would be nice to occasionally stumble on an "artifact" level gemstone.

Like something from this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_gemstones

It would also be nice if there were a broader "tech tree". Steel's ok, but how about putting all that cobalt and nickel I always find to use? Or adding metals like titanium, vanadium, or tungsten to the game? Aluminum's in, afterall. Even anthracite coal could be a nice find.

If there were some different kinds of advanced bronze in the game, and if steel rusted, you might not even want steel, and could work instead on getting your bronze as good as possible. In that case, "Casting" could become an additional metalworking skill (for lead/copper/silver/gold/platinum and their alloys, etc.)--meaning your "tech tree" could branch out, giving you more strategic choices to make.
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G-Flex

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2010, 04:56:49 pm »

It would also be nice if there were a broader "tech tree". Steel's ok, but how about putting all that cobalt and nickel I always find to use? Or adding metals like titanium, vanadium, or tungsten to the game? Aluminum's in, afterall. Even anthracite coal could be a nice find.

Some of those make sense, but most of them don't. I don't think there are any sources of tungsten, vanadium, titanium, or cobalt that dwarves have anywhere near the capacity to chemically extract from minerals containing them. The sad fact is that, as far as realistic alloys go, DF already represents almost all of the ones you'll be able to find. Of the ones it doesn't, they're mostly just different grades and types of alloys it does, such as more types of bronze (although it currently has at least three, so even then...), perhaps different grades of iron/steel, and maybe some more precious metal alloys (although it's got a bunch of those already too). Actually, the fact that you can have elemental zinc is an anachronism, so that's one example of something we have that we actually shouldn't (although we should certainly still be able to use the ore to alloy with copper).

Quote
If there were some different kinds of advanced bronze in the game, and if steel rusted, you might not even want steel, and could work instead on getting your bronze as good as possible. In that case, "Casting" could become an additional metalworking skill (for lead/copper/silver/gold/platinum and their alloys, etc.)--meaning your "tech tree" could branch out, giving you more strategic choices to make.

I don't know if you mean furniture or weapons or what, but cast metal is probably a horrible idea if you want something to be strong. Casting as an available option in general is good, though, providing it has some benefit to it over forging. Right now, it's unclear which dwarves are doing at any given time.
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Hyndis

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2010, 05:01:24 pm »

Many modern metals, such as tungsten, titanium, and aluminum, are also essentially unobtainable unless you have modern technology.

Even only a few decades ago the US simply could not refine titanium efficiently enough to produce workable amounts, which was a major worry as the Soviet Union had the best titanium deposits, and titanium is great for making spyplanes and spy satellites. The Soviets kept the titanium for themselves, for obvious reasons.

With aluminum you need electricity to produce it in usable amounts. Aluminum is an extremely common metal, but the only way to extract it from ore is using electricity. Before electricity was discovered, only minute amounts of aluminum could be extracted.

Tungsten is just very difficult to refine. It was only isolated in the 1800's.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2010, 05:10:43 pm »

Yeah, but aluminum's in the game...
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Black

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2010, 05:18:19 pm »

Aluminum is one of the rarest ores to find in elemental form, including in game. It's as rare as platinum, if not more.

But you know those endless seas of bauxite? That's how common aluminum is with modern extraction processes.
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j0nas

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #26 on: May 11, 2010, 05:22:35 pm »

It is my understanding that the number of Z-levels available in the fort-mode is moddable.  This can reduce things to 40d-levels if you wish.  Problem solved?
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #27 on: May 11, 2010, 05:38:07 pm »

Aluminum is one of the rarest ores to find in elemental form, including in game. It's as rare as platinum, if not more.

But you know those endless seas of bauxite? That's how common aluminum is with modern extraction processes.

I wouldn't mind if things like titanium or tungsten were rare.
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G-Flex

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2010, 05:44:01 pm »

Aluminum is one of the rarest ores to find in elemental form, including in game. It's as rare as platinum, if not more.

But you know those endless seas of bauxite? That's how common aluminum is with modern extraction processes.

I wouldn't mind if things like titanium or tungsten were rare.

The thing is, it wouldn't just have to be "rare". It would have to be "only a small handful of known deposits, using 20th-century geological surveying techniques" rare. Of course, this is Dwarf Fortress, so you can expect some variation from reality there, but they should never, ever turn into regular trade goods, which is exactly what would happen now if they were included. Of course, that'll change once sites keep track of how much of what is actually available, but still, some metals you just flat-out either shouldn't be able to find, or should only have an extremely tiny chance of finding at all, ever.

There are also some that probably (effectively) never occur in elemental form in rock, but I'm not sure.

Native aluminum is definitely rare, but it was at least common enough to be known by people prior to them knowing how to extract it from ore.


It is my understanding that the number of Z-levels available in the fort-mode is moddable.  This can reduce things to 40d-levels if you wish.  Problem solved?

Not really. The problem is less the amount and more the density.
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Ilmoran

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Re: So many minerals is not fun
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2010, 05:57:50 pm »

Aluminum is one of the rarest ores to find in elemental form, including in game. It's as rare as platinum, if not more.

But you know those endless seas of bauxite? That's how common aluminum is with modern extraction processes.

I wouldn't mind if things like titanium or tungsten were rare.

Tungsten and titanium don't occur as native metal; aluminum rarely does.  Aluminum already occurs less often than platinum (aluminum has only one environment, and occurs only as CLUSTER_SMALL, about 5-8 tiles; platinum occurs in 3 or 4 environments [alluvial is currently bugged], and occurs as VEIN or CLUSTER_SMALL, depending on the environment).  The only real improvement that could be made for aluminum is possibly to reduce it from CLUSTER_SMALL to CLUSTER_ONE, and maybe to change its environment to only obsidian/the interior edge of volcanos.
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