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[nenjin]

The core issue is that there is not a stable game to play rather than wait for updates. Thus users are compelled to play the beta patch just to see if the game has finally sorted out enough that it can be played. Thus Stardock blends beta and release builds together, whether they want to or not. The only real solution is an actual beta, rather than letting the whole fan base peak in on the latest unfinished build at their discretion.

I honestly haven't purchased many games that were as unfinished or rocky as Elemental. I'd only pirated Gal Civ 2 after years of updates and went "oh ok, Stardock must release relatively stable games." Pffftttt. I should have taken everyone's lampooning of them a lot more seriously, I wouldn't be as invested as I am now.

Releasing a beta of a patch for the game (already released and sold) completely misses the point.

It serves to keep non-diehard fans from walking out the door in pure disgust. Although I could have easily done with 1/2 as many patches as we've gotten, if they'd spent more time on each and killed the bugs for them.

As far as whether or not patches should be beta tested.....yes, they should be. Every single one. Hardware configurations today span over 8 years of tech. Shit breaks on some machines but not others. That's why you have beta tests, that are INTERNAL. Stardock claims they do this. I'm not so sure. I'm sure they run processes against the newest patch to look for easily identifiable breaks. I'm sure they boot the game to make sure it starts. I'm sure they load a world, pass turns arbitrarily, start a tactical battle to make sure that works.

But they don't put 4 hours into a play test of the newest build, and re-evaluate. They don't have a large range of machines to test against. They don't have professional testers. If they find a problem in the basic game play, like a stuck turn, they'll delay the patch to fix that. But they mostly deal with problems that present themselves. They pushing back the final "let's clean this whole fucking game up" work for the final release patch.

And rather than finalizing many of the beta patches they've put out, they've simply rolled forward any changes that need to happen into the next build, sometimes failing to solve problems, sometimes applying fixes that don't work, and sticking PAYING customers with another week to two weeks of a broken patch that was supposedly going to increase the game's playability.

This another thing that separates Stardock from many other dev houses, even independent ones. I can only assume Stardock saves costs by not really putting money into QA in the development process. One of those things that a pesky publisher will MAKE you do to protect their investment.

[Urist McDepravity]

Releasing beta versions after stable versions is completely normal behavior in software market. Theres stable Firefox 3, and alpha/beta versions of 4. Same with many other products. Why would games be so different in this regard? They explicitly warn everyone that beta versions are beta, and you SHOULD expect them crash and be buggy overall.
This 'I dont care what did they state there, I downloaded it and it does not work, bawwww' behavior is childish, at least. If something is marked as un-stable and has warning, you should know better.
When I install trunk version from development branch of something, I know very well that chances are high that it will not even compile. And typically you would not see complains about that (except cases when commit policy states that trunk should always compile, but thats another story).

And most funny is that these beta patches were demanded by community in the first place. Just check dev blogs for oct, and you will find lots of 'release early builds please, we will help finding bugs' from fans. So SD just did what they were asked to do.

[freeformschooler]

Releasing beta versions after stable versions is completely normal behavior in software market. Theres stable Firefox 3, and alpha/beta versions of 4. Same with many other products. Why would games be so different in this regard? They explicitly warn everyone that beta versions are beta, and you SHOULD expect them crash and be buggy overall.

This. Beta software will, inevitably, become the next release of the stable software. The reason a developer (being a dev myself) releases beta software is to have the community find the bugs for them. This is what Toady does and it works, and this is what Minecraft does (on a larger scale, it works too, although Minecraft is actually "alpha" which is connotatively buggier than "beta"). If they have a stable release and a beta release, then you get to choose!

For instance, there's this game, Sauerbraten, an open source FPS (spectacular game and engine but that's not the point). They have a... maybe bi-yearly, or tri-yearly "stable" release that is, in fact, super duper stable. That is what most people use, but they provide the SVN for everyone to compile and bug test if they feel so inclined. The SVN always has cool new features, but since they just came out, they're riddled with bugs for the most part. The devs and some normal community members regularly compile the SVN to bug test, and find bugs, which get fixed on a large scale. This is what supports the ridiculously fast SVN updates and development time. When a company only releases a stable version of software, it's up to them to find the bugs, if there are any.

For commercial, console games this is a little different -- there is almost always a team of trained, hired "play testers". There is usually a defined play-testing period where all bugs are hopefully found and squashed. For computer software devs, this can happen occasionally (like when MS released the beta of Windows 7 to certain people, e.g. college students), but the "public beta" route can also be taken, which costs less and, if a good bug tracking and reporting system is implemented, can speed up development of the next stable version.

EDIT: Before you say so, I understand that Elemental is crazy buggy and you paid for it. When a dev team takes this route, it nearly guarantees that you're going to be getting the bug fixes and patches free after your initial purchase of the beta software. I know this can be frustrating, but whatever. Stardock is occasionally good about their patches to software.

[GaelicVigil]

Releasing beta versions after stable versions is completely normal behavior in software market.

Except that there has never been a version of Elemental that could be considered even close to "stable".  So the rest of your argument is complete fail.

[nenjin]

If FF released a beta patch for the browser that crashed for 75% of the user base every time it was released, they wouldn't still be in business.

On that note, after 2 hours of 1.09q, I think they might have finally gotten their shit together.

[forsaken1111]

It irks me that the team is still making design changes to the game after its release. Are you telling me not one of the beta testers found these issues, reported them, or suggested these changes?

Brad and Stardock et al have said that game production is only a small part of their income, so why did they release the game in such a state? If what they said is true, they could have afforded to wait for the game to reach a more polished state. Hell, on release you couldn't even LOAD ANOTHER SAVED GAME without a crash. You had to exit the game entirely and start it again to load the other game.

I'm glad to know they've finally started getting their act together. I'm going to continue watching the thread because I do love the idea of Elemental and I think it has potential. If it, someday, becomes a super cool playable game I might even buy it again.

[nenjin]

On 1.09q, generally speaking...

(Core i5, Win 7, 4 gigs of Ram, 8800 GTS)

Performance is good at max, with some chokes switching between LODs, and a little stuttering in tactical battles.

Tactical battles perform much smoother overall than in previous builds though. Animations, attack and HP info, some of that stuff still doesn't sync perfectly. Elemental has this weird thing where nothing updates live. So if a selection item has changed, you have to deselect it and reselect to see the updated info.

Tactical battle balance feels like it's coming along. Numbers and results are slowly starting to sync closer together. Dodge seems to be ultimate in some cases. While it won't save a piddly unit from a strong unit for long, in addition to having a good defense it can make a tough unit damn near unstoppable.

Magic is going to need to be looked at again. All spells are now limited by intelligence, and the requirements are huge. If you want to use level 7 spells or whatever, you need an intel in the 30s or 40s. That's x4 the starting value. So not only do you need huge intelligence values to even use magic, but half of the damage they do is based on intelligence. So magic gets thermonuclear at the higher levels. But it's tough to get there. No more dozens of imbued casters slinging stuff. An imbued caster is now only good for basic summons unless you start developing them into a spellcaster. Overall, the new balance is good, you have fighters and wizards now, instead of just BLARGH. The math on spell damage is going to need a rework, I think.

Cities seem to finally be going where they need to. There is still the issue of what your current research lets you build limiting your options in city building, so without research city building can seem kind of simplistic. But with research your options really open up. The AI, however, still dog piles things to get the most out of every turn, so if you're playing for fun and not-maximum efficiency, expect to still feel like you're getting cheesed by the AI somewhat.

I've noticed the AI gobbling up quest sites now. Not sure if I like that or not.

The monster AI is diabolical now. When it's not completely reaming you, it adds a lot to the game. No more "racing across the world as you please gobbling up everything." You have to watch your ass now, and you have to guard your cities and your units. It makes the start of the game much, much more harrowing.

I can't say much of the AI in terms of tactical or overland behavior yet. In tactical I've noticed units have the bad habit of going after a troop of yours they have no hope against, rather than an easier target. Overland, I see the AI exploring way beyond its boundaries, but I haven't interacted with them as much.

Diplomacy is improving. There are a few more things it factors into its overall diplomatic opinion of you now, and the rebalancing of how it calculates the values of x, y and z is ongoing and improving. People have said it's possibly to win a pure diplomatic victory now in a semi-believable way, by simply making people love you then enveloping their cities in your zone of control.

Quests are still pretty much the same. Factions now can buy a single starting tech to specialize themselves. I took questing. What that got me was no less than 15 of the "Crazy Alchemist" quest site, and I keep uncovering more as I explore the map. So that's still a low priority item for them.

Itemization still feels a little off, but it hasn't seen many changes. They added a few new high-end purchasable magic items this patch.

---

The big phrase people are enjoying over on the forums is whether or not "Elemental has broken the fun barrier" despite all its problems. After two hours of this build I'm tempted to say yes, but I want to FINISH a game of Elemental and actually have fun doing it before I say that.

[Sowelu]

Huh!  Neat.

...I look forwards to hearing about where the AI eventually goes.  I've always wanted a game where you can set difficulty in "AI intelligence" and "CPU advantage" separately:  Sometimes you want to play the brilliant underdog, against a so-so AI that has a hojillion extra resources.  Sometimes though, you want a fair fight where you have to exploit every goddamn thing because you know the other guy will too (much like pvp).

[GaelicVigil]

It irks me that the team is still making design changes to the game after its release. Are you telling me not one of the beta testers found these issues, reported them, or suggested these changes?

Brad and Stardock et al have said that game production is only a small part of their income, so why did they release the game in such a state? If what they said is true, they could have afforded to wait for the game to reach a more polished state. Hell, on release you couldn't even LOAD ANOTHER SAVED GAME without a crash. You had to exit the game entirely and start it again to load the other game.

I'm glad to know they've finally started getting their act together. I'm going to continue watching the thread because I do love the idea of Elemental and I think it has potential. If it, someday, becomes a super cool playable game I might even buy it again.

Totally agree with you there.  With me, Elemental is a love/hate relationship.  I love the idea of the game, the concept is great and we are in dire need of a modern Master of Magic, but the implementation is horrendus.

On another note, you know what this game really needs to make the fun factor go up x10 for me?  A way to choose a child as your sovereign if your leader dies, barring he still has children and they are old enough.  The game shouldn't just end if your leader dies while you have descendants sitting around.  Would seriously be awesome to hunt down and kill your opponent's children one by one.

[forsaken1111]

Yeah that's one of the things that made the Total War series games so much fun for me.

[nenjin]

So yeah, for all my bitching, holy crap. Like 3 patches in a week. They're coming so fast I can't even finish a game, because I don't trust updating a save game through all that...and I want to experience it fresh.

So1.09s. Too gamed out to rattle it all off, but Elemental has officially broken the fun barrier for me. Still got bugs, still got crashes, but it's starting to feel like a game! For real! Not just throwing darts at game play elements, but something that's actually cohesive.

YMMV, of course, but finally I've played 12 hours and haven't found anything so broken or wrong it ruins the game for me anymore.

The AI is even shaping up. A quick vignette.

So reading the power scale, the 2nd place player is Umbar. I decided I want to take him down a little, so I convince him to make war on Tarth, who is much weaker.

Turns out, he gets stronger by conquering a big fat Tarth city. And then I notice he's built a city at the mouth of a bay, right next to an Umberdoth pack....and I see his power level slowly creeping up every few seasons as he starts cranking them out.

This town also happens to cut me off from the entire rest of the world, without being in a state of war with Umbar.

To top it all off he's built a city in front of my wall o' cities, on a crystal deposit I didn't need. Still. Irritating.

So I line up a 4 part attack. One of the crystal city. One on the Tarth city he captured, one of the coastal Umberdoth city, and one for another big, but ultimately useless, city in his main zone.

As my sovereign marches up the coast toward the Umberdoth city, I notice...an Umbar unit in the FoW....not just a unit...a small army that's been lurking at the edges of the continent, ready to pounce one exceptionally juicy city of mine. The unit proceeds to follow my sovereign, in lock-step, all the way to the Umberdoth city limits, where I then kill it and initiate the war.

And I walk away with 2 brand new cities, an umberdoth pack, and my dick literally in the face of his capital city. Then I go to the negotiating table, throw a little diplomatic capital at him, and he's like "Fine...." Considering in one stroke I chopped 25% of power out from under him, when we were neck 'n neck, he was pretty happy to negotiate on almost any terms. He wasn't begging me for peace by any means, but I'm hoping it was a subtle way of bowing out gracefully, and not just some stupid miscalculation on diplomatic capital.

Now, how's that for AI? I'm almost completely certain, prior to my act of war, he was on the verge of extorting me, and it seems like he was ready to target a very vulnerable, and highly opportune city (1 ancient temple, 1 warg pack, 2 twliight bees food resource, and a diplomatic view and field just north of the city.)

Did I mention he had a big army of Umberdoth's lurking in the FoW near the Umberdoth city, which I'm pretty sure was head to go nomnom on cities?

It could have gone differently had I not stuck it to him in the one place that was giving him a real competitive edge: the Umberdoths. Once I had that and a few punitive city stealing/razings for good measure, they're back in their place.

This is all at normal (which I've found pretty easy once you know how the building scheme works and hold out for a really good starting set up. In this case, my Arabian inspired Empire happened to land in the bread basket for the whole goddamn world, so life is good.) I could have steam rolled the AI ages ago, but I find it more fun to toy with them and see how Brad's AI is coming along. I rushed into army tech quickly, and since I'm the only player fielding 3 or more-sized squads, most stuff is piddly. Dumping a ton into magic has been helpful too, as you can still execute most piddly creatures with simple spells.)

It's pretty easy since I've kept playing, but I imagine some might find it really tough starting out. It's now possible to totally fuck yourself over in your scheme, not conserving when you need to for emergencies, not prioritizing the stuff that makes your life vastly easier, like mounts and teleportation...You know, the quality of development aside, Elemental does have a lot of good stuff going for it. The best changes have only really come in the last month or so. 

Game is pretty damn addictive when it's properly balanced and not fucking up all the time.

[nenjin]

There have been many patches recently. 1.09u will be next upcoming one as of this post. There's too much to post, but suffice to say, they are working on a lot.

More interestingly than that, is Brad putting out feelers to the forum about the stability performance of the latest build, and asking whether people think it's ready to ship out as 1.1 for Christmas. And it seems he's listening to both sides telling him yes and no. My answer is as always qualified: if they think they can clean up enough by then sure. If not, no. He said if they push back til January, it might be the end of Elemental development if they miss a big bump in sales. That would make me sad, and piss me off, seeing as I've thoroughly played the game now and being left only with what's there would be like taking one bite of a good apple and throwing it away. (I'd still have modding but that's no replacement for active development.)

Brad said they're feature locked at this point, so it's ALL bug fixing now. Based on the content that's in the game now, I'd say it's worth a look. I'm hoping Elemental goes on past 1.1, because there's a lot of features that were promised, are implied, or are in the makings in the game right now, and I'd hate to see all that go poof. 

[GaelicVigil]

There have been many patches recently. 1.09u will be next upcoming one as of this post. There's too much to post, but suffice to say, they are working on a lot.

More interestingly than that, is Brad putting out feelers to the forum about the stability performance of the latest build, and asking whether people think it's ready to ship out as 1.1 for Christmas. And it seems he's listening to both sides telling him yes and no. My answer is as always qualified: if they think they can clean up enough by then sure. If not, no. He said if they push back til January, it might be the end of Elemental development if they miss a big bump in sales. That would make me sad, and piss me off, seeing as I've thoroughly played the game now and being left only with what's there would be like taking one bite of a good apple and throwing it away. (I'd still have modding but that's no replacement for active development.)

Brad said they're feature locked at this point, so it's ALL bug fixing now. Based on the content that's in the game now, I'd say it's worth a look. I'm hoping Elemental goes on past 1.1, because there's a lot of features that were promised, are implied, or are in the makings in the game right now, and I'd hate to see all that go poof.

Wasn't it just a week ago that Brad stated that unlike most gaming companies, where development basically ends at release, Elemental's release was just the beginning of development?  He has said on many occasions that they would be working on fixing Elemental for the foreseeable future.  This guy's flip-flopping hypocrisy knows no bounds.

[nenjin]

If the consensus is that we should push v1.1 into January, we can do that but it could effectively end Elemental if it's the wrong choice since this Christmas is, effectively the first impression most people will get of the game (sales are already starting to reach a new height and I see some of the support tickets from v1.09).

That's the direct quote. I don't think he's flip flopping, but I think he's come to the realization that Stardock's pocket for developing Elemental is not bottomless. Plus he has partners like Random House to think about.

[Rift]

yea i wouldn't say he's flip flopping so much as he was rushing madly forward then ran into a brickwall, after a bit of trying to figure out how horrible shape his body is in, he finally is acting more sensible and is less likely to run around without some caution.