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Author Topic: Elemental - War of Magic  (Read 85608 times)

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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #690 on: November 19, 2010, 04:45:38 pm »

I think people confuse awesome with overpowered.

I honestly don't know what the answer is for the boring magic system in elemental. Honestly I don't know what the answer is for the borning elemental.

I was a little excited before I hit spoiler on that list, but I just don't see anything on it that makes me want to fire the game back up.

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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #691 on: November 19, 2010, 05:09:09 pm »

I think people confuse awesome with overpowered.
Overpowered things are awesome to have, though.
Unless they're in multiplayer.Then they're >(
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #692 on: November 19, 2010, 10:17:56 pm »

So, after a few hours:

-They've vastly improved performance and the polish on animations. Tactical battles are no longer a nightmare to play through. Frame rates are doing great.

-The stat and combat rebalance seems to be working ok, at least with single units attacking each other. However, there's been some monster rebalancing, and just throwing peasants at guys with 1 or 2 defense is no longer viable. Defense seems really important now.

-Following that, creeps are much nastier now. They go for unguarded towns like they were supposed to originally now, so all towns have to have at least 1 guy in them. There were many times I just ignored a sufficient military and blasted creeps with magic and summons. That's totally gone now, and even going full tilt on magic, you'll need foot soldiers and mooks.

-The city rebalancing is totally a step in the right direction. There are many more factors to consider now during city building and specialization. Food is very important, once again, as it seems they've toned down a lot of bonuses you get from research and such. You also get a free +prestige structure at the start of the game, which means your capital city grows fast and takes up a lot of your food supply. I haven't gotten awesome caravans rolling yet, but at three cities each with a food resource and the research, and I'm not awash in excess food anymore. So, that and the fact populations are a resource now, and there's more to consider.

However, there are a couple gaps in the system. You can build as many of most structures as you want. So, you can build 8 archivists in a city, at a cost of 5 pop a piece, if you want to. Which isn't hard, since you have hundreds of population to play with, the mats are easy and they only take up one tile. Which kind of addresses the city balance issues....but sort of not. Because now you can super-charge cities for the resources that are available. I have to spend more time with it and play a few more games....but right now I've got boatloads of excess population to use, and because of the slow rate of my research atm, the only thing I have to invest them in is.....research. So. Not really specialized. Once you get the basic necessities taken care of, it seems like you can just load up every city with extra research. (Or military, since each military unit is 1:1 population cost. So a full unit costs 9 population.)

-They've introduced some new and rather stupid bugs. Like your Zones of Control resetting after a save to something smaller than they were. So the game is continuing to advance while you have to rebuild all your shit once your ZoC regenerates to it's actual size.

-The UI got a decent face lift. I think I like it.

-Some of the customization options. like finally being able to re-design NPC hero unit cards, has been worked in.

-The spells are kind of moving in the right direction. For example, recall costs 8 mana, and returns you to your capital. Teleport costs 16 mana, and sends you to any friendly tile. So it seems like they're finally starting to get what makes for interesting balance choices where spells are concerned.

-The spells still aren't wowing me as I go through the levels, but they've really dialed back how much you get to start with so I haven't seen a lot. You have to research most spells books now, which really slows down the rate of spell acquisition. Some of the new spell book art looks pretty nice.

That's about it for now. If there's a lot more coming with 1.1, I'll possibly be recommending people revisit it. If you want to know how all this new mechanical shit is shaking out though, it's worth a look now. But Stardock being Stardock, they've introduced more frustrating problems along with all the newness.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 10:36:29 pm by nenjin »
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #693 on: November 23, 2010, 03:01:29 pm »

I think people confuse awesome with overpowered.
Overpowered things are awesome to have, though.
Unless they're in multiplayer.Then they're >(
You know, one of the reasons Master of Magic is so awesome is because everything is equally overpowered (even more after the fan-patches), and that's makes it even better for multiplayer.
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #694 on: November 23, 2010, 03:26:26 pm »

Yep, there are a load of great games with an "Everything is Overpowered" design philosophy - Fall From Heaven II, MtG... and Master of Magic. Some games are that awesome because they are ridiculously exploitable. And, particularily in Master of Magic, if you are playing with other humans, you can counter their incredibly OP stuff. The infamous Guardian Spirit + Invulnerability thing? Use Dispel Magic, or Dispel Magic True (if you brought blue books)

Really a lot of the imbalances in Master of Magic were related to eleven books of one color giving a rare spell, and a rare spell at the beginning is incredibly OP. Axing that feature would make the game remarkably more fair, and still hilarious.
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #695 on: November 23, 2010, 04:13:22 pm »

 You should post a note about that here in the section for the Catnip Balance Mod. The insecticide patch there is at version 1.40h and particularly useful.
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Imagine a cool peice of sky-blue and milk-white marble about 3cm by 2cm and by 0.5cm, containing a tiny 2mm malacolite crystal. Now imagine the miles of metamorphic rock it's embedded in that no pick or chisel will ever touch. Then, imagine that those miles will melt back into their mantle long before any telescope even refracts an image of their planet. The watchers will be so excited to have that image too.

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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #696 on: November 23, 2010, 04:18:57 pm »

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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #697 on: November 23, 2010, 05:48:39 pm »

 Just what he named it; it's not themed or anything.
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #698 on: November 23, 2010, 05:50:11 pm »

:(
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #699 on: November 23, 2010, 07:04:11 pm »

Master of Magic had a lot of "damn that's awesome" spells.  As a result, it was ridiculously unbalanced (like that spell that removes unhappiness from the city => max out taxes => a winner is you).  At least it sounds like they're TRYING to balance the game.  Whether they succeed, and whether that's even important, are both questionable...but that's one thing at least.

There's a reason people enjoy Master of Magic and don't enjoy Elemental.

In the beta, I suggested (repeatedly) that they should abandon the magic design model and really go back to basics. I was suggesting accidental failures of magic completely blowing up the city they were used on, shards causing damage to the squares around them when they're "activated" etc etc. I got a lot of replies saying, "YES THIS IS WHAT I WANT IN ELEMENTAL YES DEAR GOD".

And, instead, they took away the idea of "enchantment slots" from some random guy. :|

Essentially, I was suggesting magic become more magical and less mechanical. It's dangerous, it's useful and it regularly bites the hand that feeds it. The changes wouldn't even be particularly hard to implement for people who've coded the game (the shard idea, as an example, was a building and a script about the decimation of the tiles around it, that happens in game already on a much smaller scale).

I think this is what they just don't get. Maybe I should post there again. :|
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #700 on: November 24, 2010, 03:23:23 pm »

In general when someone says "I had the idea to fix the game in beta and no one listened" I reply with "Scoff scoff".

That, however, isn't a terrible idea. Overpowered spells are fine so long as they have a negative side as well. Someone should start work on that spell pack.

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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #701 on: November 24, 2010, 03:32:44 pm »

I'm generally against that kind of randomness, myself.  Especially random bad things.  When random badness chains together, it can really screw you over; no matter how good you've been doing and no matter how smart you've been, blowing two important 1% catastrophic failure chances in a row is terrible and ruins the experience.

It can give too much power to your enemies, too.  If three AI players each think they're going to lose to the human, they might as well all take huge risks.  Strategic risks?  Cool.  Just plain rolling the dice?  Uncool.

The whole thing smacks of "spearmen defeating stealth bombers".  Don't give too much power to the RNG!
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #702 on: November 24, 2010, 03:41:49 pm »

I agree that the RNG should be given minimal power in a strategy game, but I think it is a fair way to balance overpowered spells.

The other options are A) No over powered spells or B) over powered spells with no downsides or C) overpowered spells with set downsides.

A is kind of boring. B just makes it so you only use the most powerful spells and C really just makes spells a unit or building. For example, a spell that adds 5 magic research at the cost of 10 food or something. Well, that is a building, just skinned differently.

Plus stories are always better when you a summon a demon to fight for you but lose control of him.


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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #703 on: November 24, 2010, 03:44:05 pm »

Eh.  Personally I'd prefer set downsides, because something like that is exactly the opposite of something I would ever want to play.  And I really liked MoM.
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Re: Elemental - War of Magic
« Reply #704 on: November 24, 2010, 06:32:42 pm »

Any other opinions on the current release?

Should I even consider parting with money?
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