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[Umi]

Hi!

Umi: I am assuming you are responding to my statements.

Actually, I see quite the opposite potential. With the right weight, if you take the time to choose the right dwarves, you can look forward to epic stands of individuals in the time of need.

For instance, someone who cares about others would be more likely to sacrifice themselves if there are civilians who need protection.

What I am interested in is to avoid having standardized units - so even if you have 2 brave dwarves, their feelings about some things may cause them to react differently to a given situation (within reason, of course). What would indeed be impossible is to simply recruit a new migrant without a look at them and trust that you get a strong military out of it - and I think that would be an improvement.

Deathworks

I was responding to just this idea in general.  Applied specifically to your comments though, how would brave-dwarf-who-loves-to-protect-others know that the rest of the civvies are in danger?  Either they would always fight to death even when no one is in much danger, or always assume there aren't many in danger.  How would one program them to understand that THIS is the fight of their lives over any other ones?  Is it even possible?

[Karnewarrior]

Don't worry, Toady will do it, eventually.

Shouldn't this be moved to the suggestion forums?

[Deathworks]

Hi!

I was responding to just this idea in general.  Applied specifically to your comments though, how would brave-dwarf-who-loves-to-protect-others know that the rest of the civvies are in danger?  Either they would always fight to death even when no one is in much danger, or always assume there aren't many in danger.  How would one program them to understand that THIS is the fight of their lives over any other ones?  Is it even possible?

Well, right off the bat, I could propose two systems:

* Cheating (if the siegers can do it, we can too :) :) ) : Basically, the dwarf fights to the end if there are any living children/babies/dwarves who are not drafted in the fortress. So, just the data you see in the unit overview of the status page would do.
* Look around: Have the dwarf look around. If she sees any non-military dwarf in the vicinity, she will fight to the end.

These are the spontaneous solutions I just came up, so there may be neater ones.

Deathworks

[Greiger]

Gandalf McHuman Grey Wizard cancels last stand: Oh shit, it's a balor, fuck that.

With how some of these size differences currently are I imagine it would be quite easy to face a creature that is so spectacularly large even your bravest military dwarf wouldn't hold the line against it.  I figure it oughta be possible for particularly brave (or particularly out of their goddamn mind) dwarves to just ignore the chance to run away and fight regardless of circumstances. 

I imagine that could happen with dwarves who recently lost a significant number of friends becoming a little suicidal in combat (while not actually being insane in the current sense).  Or hell a Dwarf could lose a family member or close friend to a particular goblin and charge that goblin ignoring all others enraged until one of them is dead.  Even going so far as to ignore orders. 

Or if the above points based system is used gain a significant amount of points toward "kick it's ass" if that creature killed somebody they knew.  After a few years they could even gain a hatred to the offending civ, race, or even so far as to hate anybody who just happens the same color hair or eyes.  Wouldn't notice that effect much against goblins, but it would be an interesting touch if the first friendly caravan from humans after a war suddenly got slaughtered by a crazy enraged miner that charged into the depot swinging.  Quickly restarting the war.

[Umi]

Hi!

I was responding to just this idea in general.  Applied specifically to your comments though, how would brave-dwarf-who-loves-to-protect-others know that the rest of the civvies are in danger?  Either they would always fight to death even when no one is in much danger, or always assume there aren't many in danger.  How would one program them to understand that THIS is the fight of their lives over any other ones?  Is it even possible?

Well, right off the bat, I could propose two systems:

* Cheating (if the siegers can do it, we can too ) : Basically, the dwarf fights to the end if there are any living children/babies/dwarves who are not drafted in the fortress. So, just the data you see in the unit overview of the status page would do.
* Look around: Have the dwarf look around. If she sees any non-military dwarf in the vicinity, she will fight to the end.

These are the spontaneous solutions I just came up, so there may be neater ones.

Deathworks

Or, building off those ideas, they would fight to the death if any civvies aren't in their designated burrow.  Once they're in then they are free to run again.

Maybe have friends and family group together in the case of an attack.  Have the braver ones of the group stand up and protect their loved ones.

[HatfieldCW]

That would be cool, having interpersonal relationships influence the decisions.  If a dwarf has a good friend, lover or infant (and isn't actively using it as supplementary body armor), that wasn't in the bomb shelter burrow yet, they'd lay down their life to buy time, but if they're some new migrant soaper who hasn't even sampled the fort's booze yet, they'll shift quickly into "fuck this fort" mode and scurry for cover.  There was a good Wavinator post on GDnet a while ago about really awesome feats being triggered by a character's social situation, so a soldier with the "girl waiting for me back home" tag could rally and survive incapacitating wounds or might endure starvation more robustly than his base stats should indicate.  A newlywed dwarf with a pregnant wife might get a one-time bonus to pain tolerance or a chance to recover from a nervous system injury due to his upgraded "will to live".  A whole list of triggers could be linked into this, so a famous warrior mother, or a noble lineage, or having bootstrapped from eating vermin to living in a plush room through his industry might all have the same effect, but for different reasons.

On the more general topic of "epic last stands" as Umi pointed out, maybe each military squad could have a configurable "strictness" rating, similar to the setting for the minimum number of dwarves on-station, and a higher rigor would hurt morale and require better leadership attributes from the squad leader, but would make the squad hold its ground longer in the face of a losing battle.  So you could either hand-pick an elite squad with a great leader that would really hold the line, or you could just flog your recruits and get good performance out of them at the expense of fort happiness and the risk of tantrums, mutinies and "friendly fire" incidents against your officers.

On a related (barely) note, I would like to see some emigration from the fort.  When a caravan packs up and heads to the next stop, the more miserable or disenfranchised members of the fort might have a chance to pack their socks into a backpack and move away.  Give the dwarf a vague understanding that staying in unacceptable conditions would inevitably lead to insanity and death, and let them act to mitigate that risk.

[Nikov]

Subtle systems generate more elaborate explainations. Dwarves should use a simple morale system. Their level of dutifulness determines when they break in combat. Their level of self-discipline determines their resistance to losing morale. Their level of anger determines their ability to gain morale through combat. Their level of excitement-seeking gives a boost to morale at the start of combat. Morale is further enhanced by the quality of weapons and armor. Skill in those weapons combined with confidence increases starting morale. As dwarves suffer injuries, witness death, and tire they begin to lose morale, but as they inflict injuries, see the enemy fall and have other dwarves around them they gain morale. Once morale falls below their breaking point, the dwarf runs off and slowly regains morale over time, getting appropriate boosts as injuries heal or they run into other dwarves.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Nikov: I may be wrong, but you sound as if the elaborate explanations (a.k.a. background stories) were a bad thing. At least for me, the extreme level of detail is part of the great appeal of the game, which in turn makes it difficult to predict what exactly will happen. Therefore, I personally think that especially a system that can sometimes surprise the player but upon closer inspection make perfect sense would be really appropriate for the game.

The simple mechanics you propose remind me a lot of more abstract games where you just have combat units and not living, thinking creatures (ah, the wonderful days of Panzer Strike on the C=64...). Therefore, I personally do not really like them.

Deathworks

[Kogan Loloklam]

Martial trances (and special, non-beneficial ones for humans) can also make them fight to the death. That would allow for brave last stands.

I really like this idea. I can picture it now. Your stalwart defenses are holding up wonderfully, then Urist McCoward's best good buddy gets shot through and the whole squad breaks and runs from the latest goblin assault, only to watch in horror as the truly veteran dwarves and civilians run past them and into the arms of the goblins, whom are much less scary than the HFS that have finally cracked the fortress open from below.

You got rallying checks and such, and "retreat" orders that function on those. A "Cornered" tag can be given to anything that can't get away because pathing sees no clear escape, and they could fight to the death too.

I like it. Is it in the eternal suggestions yet?

[Bauglir]

-snip-

[ronnyfire]

This has my

The only question i have is how deep and intricate should it be taken? all tho knowing dwarf fortress, if it is implemented, I'm sure it will end up being more complicated than the human mind =]

[Sabin Stargem]

I just added Combat Psychology to the Eternal Suggestions.  Please cast your votes as you will. 

[Kogan Loloklam]

I just added Combat Psychology to the Eternal Suggestions.  Please cast your votes as you will. 

Thank you. Voted.

It's now got 2 whole votes!

[Acanthus117]

Awesome. I gotta get some votes on this.

[lordnincompoop]

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