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DF40d

Df2010

[neosorcerer]

I wonder how many of the people who voted for the new one realise that hunger, thirst and tiredness penalise your dwarf's skill levels?

I was wondering that too...

[Yobgod]

I've had a brewer die of dehydration because he's too busy making beer to drink any of it - that is just dumb.

And arguably un-dwarfy. Nothing is more important than a nice beer break!

Really, I'm going to throw my vote in for the non-option of something completely different than either purely reactive method. Before a dwarf takes on a task, it should take an extra few ticks to consider the following things:
1) How far away is the job from my/a bed and my/a dining room (we'll let dwarves assume food and drink will be available near any dining room)?
2) How far away is the job from where I am now?
3) How long will the job take to complete, including round trip time?
4) What's my current state of thirst/hunger/fatigue and what will it be at the soonest I can assuage it if I take this job?
5) If I'm going to be hungry/thirsty soon, consider grabbing a bite/drink before leaving for the job or (if enabled) taking a sack lunch or wineskin along with me.
6) If I'm going to be too tired to do this and get back to my/a room, is it reasonably possible to do so? If no, plan to sleep at the job site. [Hmm, maybe Clothiers should be able to craft blankets or bedrolls that will reduce the unpleasantness of sleeping on the ground. If added, a dwarf sent to a distant woodcutting or construction site would now have the forethought to bring one along...] If yes, check other jobs for something more reasonable and put this off until morning.

It shouldn't need to be terribly complex logic. Just let the dwarf project themselves forward in time to the conclusion of the task and, if their state would at that point be dire given the proximity of bed/food/drink, either take precautions or put off this particular task until later.

[Metroid]

Isn't sleeping without a bed something that an Elf would do? (Even if it's underground...)

[UberNube]

I propose a different intermediate solution:

Simply each dwarf has a 'workload counter'. This is a moving average of the amount of work they are doing per day (in terms of time percentage). If a dwarf has a very low workload, then he is likely to put in overtime when assigned a task since he knows he will get time off later. On the other hand, if a dwarf has a high workload (eg a miner), then he will get tired of working all the time and want to take breaks as soon as he gets tired/hungry/thirsty. This way if you get a one-off important task (eg, forgotten beast to butcher), then the dwarf will put in overtime to make sure it is finished. If you want your miners to mine out 100000 tiles for your megaproject, then they will soon grow bored and be more lazy. It should also be an option to declare a task "critical" which will result in a dwarf working himself until he is starving/exhausted/dehydrated. He will be unhappy, but at least the task will get done. Dwarves should also cancel partying etc for critical or occasional tasks.

[BitLooter]

I prefer the new system, because I like the idea of some sort of invisible overlord, standing over the dwarfs forcing them to work.

"Work faster, Urist! Work! *cracks his whip* The king says he wants 3 pewter statues of warthog cheese, and he's damn well going to get it or it's your ass!"

I feel it makes up a little for all the times my dwarfs have done something incredibly stupid, like running off to get some booze in the middle of building the emergency wall keeping goblin invaders out.

[Nihilist]

The skill penalization is good - I agree that they spend way too much time hungry/thirsty right now, but once thats working better I'm 100% behind it. An option to disable that in init or world gen or w/e would be good for those that are building mega projects would be ideal as that mechanic would be rather frustrating.

For normal play I don't want everything to be perfect - if it is I won't have fun.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Granted, I am currently not so much interested in controlling the quality of my goods as I mostly create trade goods, but things are looking good. Just recently, my broker, who basically only has the craft jobs activated in order to allow a quick freeing of him for trade, has reached adept stone crafter skill and has already produced a few masterwork stone crafts. Thus, I don't really have a big problem with quality decay.

And my fortresses thus far have always suffered from my dwarves never idling because I can't resist all the temptations - which is bad for a no immigration fortress that needs marriages. So, I definitely have my dwarves work as much as possible.

Deathworks

[KFK]

Before, if I EVER saw a thirsty dwarf, I knew that there was a problem in the booze supply: maybe I screwed up and forgot to order more booze, maybe something more serious. 'Doesn't happen often, and I try not to let things get to that point, but it does happen, especially in early fortresses when barrels and brewable plants can be in short supply. Now I don't know if I'm having an emergency or not.  One might argue that this will force me to be more diligent (and it has), but any way you slice it, an important source of information has been made meaningless.


And I'd like to echo some earlier sentiments: I don't like the micromanagement. If my dorfs want to work thirsty, that's their prerogative, but the second it impacts the quality of their work, I want them to take a break. I'd rather a lump of ore tomorrow than an empty square today.

[Hyperturtle]

micromanaging due to the new method?

The *only* time I worry about hunger and thirst is when the dwarf is in the hospital and no one is taking care of the guy.  Otherwise they eat when they want to and I pay no attention.  Just like before.

I'll throw a few food and booze barrels near workshops to keep a handy supply, or also in a far off mine, but... micromanaging their food?  Isn't there something else in the fortress that needs doing?

[Hyndis]

I like the new method, but its too aggressive.

When dwarves want to eat/booze/sleep they should complete their current task only. Then eat/booze/sleep. They should not accept new jobs while hungry, thirsty, or tired unless there is no food/drink available.

[Aklyon]

I like the new method, but its too aggressive.

When dwarves want to eat/booze/sleep they should complete their current task only. Then eat/booze/sleep. They should not accept new jobs while hungry, thirsty, or tired unless there is no food/drink available.

This sounds reasonable.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Hyperturtle: I also have no problems with managing hunger and thirst. But some people seem to indicate that those had been a serious problem for them at times.

Given how aggressive the dwarves work, I could imagine that if you have a very large map with all the drink on one end and all the workshops on the other, a dwarf might actually die from dehydration. But under the circumstances I have seen in my fortresses, this has never occurred.

I am a bit confused about the claim that a brewer died of dehydration while next to a ready barrel. Dwarves will abort jobs when they themselves get into a critical status - I have witnessed that often enough when my weapon traps are constructed, as they consist of 11 parts (1 mechanism + 10 blades) which all are carried from deep inside the fortress to its outer edge.

And I also have a lot of tasks on repeat, like wood burning, craft making, smelting while also currently killing the massive surplus of grizzly bear cubs which has caused the butcher to get cluttered but still generate one job after the other. In my previous fortress, I had my dwarves process the bones of several elephants into bone crafts - which means they were working in a completely cluttered workshop on repeat.

I am not saying that those who have encountered deaths because of the system are doing something wrong, but there seems to be a great difference between our experiences, which may very well be due to a bug (like the fishing bug which is not consistent across players and worlds or the deadly rain bug).

Deathworks

[huhu]

Possible upgrade: Once you get a manager in, you should be able to access some micromanagement involving this. There could be like a per-profession default setting about it, which could be overridden by per-dwarf settings from the v menu (needs a manager to access it). Civilians really need to start carrying their own rations now that this new feature is in. All in all, it's a constant micromanaging pain in the behind for a very limited benefit, although I think it fits the game better than the 40d way, which always felt unrefined and lacking to me.

[Kavalion]

What amuses me about the new system is realizing that I'm hungry, thirsty, and sleepy but still playing Dwarf Fortress. 

"I'll just finish this barrel and then I'll go eat some plump helmets... done!  ... I'll just finish one more barrel and then I'll go eat some plump helmets."

It might make some sense if we're able to force short breaks.  I also don't think there should be skill penalties for being just a little hungry or whatever.  Starving, sure.

[Cruxador]

What amuses me about the new system is realizing that I'm hungry, thirsty, and sleepy but still playing Dwarf Fortress. 

"I'll just finish this barrel and then I'll go eat some plump helmets... done!  ... I'll just finish one more barrel and then I'll go eat some plump helmets."

It might make some sense if we're able to force short breaks.  I also don't think there should be skill penalties for being just a little hungry or whatever.  Starving, sure.

Heh. I do the same. I've never died because of it, though. I reckon dwarves should still get around to satisfying their basic needs before death.

Mine have mostly managed that, though.