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Would you support adding waste/sewage, and management thereof, as part of Dwarf Fortress? Note that this is in support of most creatures regularly generating some sort of waste, which may have various uses, like fertilizer, or must merely be disposed of.

I support adding creature waste to the game
- 134 (46.9%)
I do NOT support adding creature waste to the game
- 86 (30.1%)
I would not mind, but do not care
- 37 (12.9%)
Other
- 3 (1%)
In the distant future, but not anytime soon. (You should vote yes instead of this, but it was called for.)
- 26 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 285


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Author Topic: Would you support adding waste/sewage?  (Read 12466 times)

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2010, 06:57:55 pm »

If we're going to talk about detail, dwarves should sleep every day, eat a few times, pee several times, and poop once.

For their health Urist McHouse recommends loving sex every other day, a glass of wine with dinner (not a problem), and a 40 hour work week.

And that changes DF straight into playing The Sims with alcoholic midgets back in 1400.
Oh, and I dislike the idea of having even more crap stuffed inside the game instead of getting the current stuff fixed. Maybe after Toady gets a decent pathfinding so my stone won't try to pathfind down the volcano.
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riznar

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #46 on: May 07, 2010, 07:05:28 pm »

LordSlowpoke brings up a good point.

What should be the proper priority for a waste system? How many of these items (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) is it more important than?

Why is fecal matter essential to a waste system? Alternatives have been brought up in this thread

Why should Toady implement something so divisive?
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Cruxador

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2010, 07:52:03 pm »

If we're going to talk about detail, dwarves should sleep every day, eat a few times, pee several times, and poop once.

For their health Urist McHouse recommends loving sex every other day, a glass of wine with dinner (not a problem), and a 40 hour work week.

And that changes DF straight into playing The Sims with alcoholic midgets back in 1400.
Oh, and I dislike the idea of having even more crap stuffed inside the game instead of getting the current stuff fixed. Maybe after Toady gets a decent pathfinding so my stone won't try to pathfind down the volcano.
There has been no suggestion that this precede anything else. The earliest it might happen would be after the current bugs are fixed, adventure mode and sieges are made fun, and the top ten suggestions are addressed. And the bugs resulting from those additions are fixed.

At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if a plethora of relatively small things go in, and this could be one of them.

Or it might not.
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Rotten

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2010, 08:12:30 pm »

LordSlowpoke brings up a good point.

What should be the proper priority for a waste system? How many of these items (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) is it more important than?

Why is fecal matter essential to a waste system? Alternatives have been brought up in this thread

Why should Toady implement something so divisive?
HEY TOADY!
STOP BUGFIXING!
STOP BREAKS!
STOP ARMY ARC!
ADD IN DWARF POOP! NOW!

Was anyone saying that? No. Most suggestions assume that it will be implemented when practical, not this instant. Obviously other things are more important. Maybe after the bugfixing period is over, or when Toady want's to take a break from Army Arc to code something else. I don't know. I just want it in eventually.

It's kind of pointless to add in a waste system without poop. Like adding in dragons without fire. It also gets rid of the possibility of using poop for fertilizer, explosive production (more urine, but whatever), etc.

It's up to Toady whether to add it or not. Currently popular vote is leaning towards yes, he should.
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True, but at a certain velocity the resulting explosion expels invader-bits at fatal speeds. You don't want to be dropping trogdolyte-shaped shrapnel bombs into your boneworks.
Only in Dwarf Fortress...

Bronzebeard

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2010, 08:50:55 pm »

Quote
If we're going to talk about detail, dwarves should sleep every day, eat a few times, pee several times, and poop once.
On that note, it would be nice if there were a little more discrepancy between day and night. There are days in the game, but the only way you can tell (at least in Fortress Mode) is if there are fireflies buzzing about. Oh well.
Quote
It's kind of pointless to add in a waste system without poop. Like adding in dragons without fire. It also gets rid of the possibility of using poop for fertilizer, explosive production (more urine, but whatever), etc.
I agree. It was just a thought in regards to the incomprehensible piling of said waste, though. It wouldn't make much sense not making the waste an actual in-game unit, though, as far as bang-for-the-buck goes -- if dwarves have to stop their duties now and then to go to the bathroom, there should at least be some waste you could put to good use in elf traps fertilizing, routing a sewage system, etc.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 08:54:10 pm by Bronzebeard »
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Vester

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2010, 09:07:59 pm »

LordSlowpoke brings up a good point.

What should be the proper priority for a waste system? How many of these items (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) is it more important than?

Why is fecal matter essential to a waste system? Alternatives have been brought up in this thread

Why should Toady implement something so divisive?


You know, the whole "Do female dwarves have beards or not?" debate was about as vociferous.
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"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

riznar

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2010, 09:32:10 pm »

It's equally pointless to do more work to add poop to a waste management system when you get all the benefits (sewage, fertilizer, other reactions) without it.
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Deathworks

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2010, 09:59:45 pm »

Hi!

Trying to be optimistic, I voted "Yes" this time. But as I have explained before, it is very important for me that we find a way to curb the resulting onslaught of immaturity that might occur (I am not sad if I am wrong and it does not occur at all, of course).
So what? It's a single player game. People's poop-drowning traps will not be forced on you. Just don't build them. Using the immaturity as an excuse is like saying that the internet should be shut down because some people use it to plan crimes.

It is when you get people posting about it on the DF forums on a regular basis as a new meme on the same level as the catsplosion based meme.
Oh no, immaturity on the internet?! Everybody, into the magma!
...
Just ignore it. I can't really imagine how you would be offended by a person mentioning poop. It's a basic bodily function.
Also people post about how they do sick/insane stuff every day on the internet. It should be shut down.

(Trying to avoid a quote pyramid as it causes a lot of lag for me)

First of all, Zangi clarified the issue I am worried about quite correctly.

Secondly, like it or not, we are influenced by our everyday experiences, and fecal humor is about the lowest, cheapest humor I know of presented for immature boys in its own subgenre in manga and basically nowhere else except some extreme erotic material or maybe an occasional bit of hospital criticism. All the other extreme subjects we encounter in Dwarf Fortress and the discussions here either have no common image at all ("magma" is not a regular in average popular media) or have a wider or even positive application in popular culture ("violence" and "evilness" are common feature in most of our average entertainment as well, and also a hallmark of things like anti-war media, which therefore give the concepts the potential for a positive reading). That is the difference I see between it and any other aspects we have.

Third, yes, the internet is large. Thanks to governments using child pornography as a means to get their censorship legislation into place instead of making agreements to internationally persecute child molestors and in doing so shut down the offending sites, it is also probably full of child pornography. Do you want nearly every thread to contain at least one person showing off some photos of a real life child getting raped? Yes, it is out there, but do we want to have it here?

And even if you don't want to go for such illegal things, I am sure that among the tons of pornography/erotic on the internet, there are things that will make you sick as well. They are there, but do you want to see them in unrelated threads here on the forums, just because someone considers them a cool "meme"?

And the problem with feces is that they are likely to be as flexible as magma, so that "Apply poo!" probably would work as well and as versatile as "Apply magma!". Therefore, it is likely that it will be spread around just like blood and other contaminants are spread around in the game, until you have everything covered in it.

But as I said in my quoted post, I hope I am too pessimistic in seeing all this happen, which is why I support the addition.

Deathworks
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Ilmoran

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2010, 10:22:30 pm »

Secondly, like it or not, we are influenced by our everyday experiences, and fecal humor is about the lowest, cheapest humor I know of presented for immature boys in its own subgenre in manga and basically nowhere else except some extreme erotic material or maybe an occasional bit of hospital criticism. All the other extreme subjects we encounter in Dwarf Fortress and the discussions here either have no common image at all ("magma" is not a regular in average popular media) or have a wider or even positive application in popular culture ("violence" and "evilness" are common feature in most of our average entertainment as well, and also a hallmark of things like anti-war media, which therefore give the concepts the potential for a positive reading). That is the difference I see between it and any other aspects we have.

And the problem with feces is that they are likely to be as flexible as magma, so that "Apply poo!" probably would work as well and as versatile as "Apply magma!". Therefore, it is likely that it will be spread around just like blood and other contaminants are spread around in the game, until you have everything covered in it.

If, in your experience, fecal humor is such a small, specific subsection of humor that you basically can't find it unless you are looking for it, why do you think that including sewage in DF is going to suddenly make the forums turn into a giant shit-joke?

And on what basis are you saying feces (which isn't what this topic is about, specifically the previous topic was full of people who couldn't get over the fact that the original post said feces, even though everyone in the topic was willing to refer to it in less specific terms such as sewage or filth) will be as versatile as magma and then saying it's likely to spread around "just like blood and other contaminants"?  After all, that's pretty contradictory; contaminants can't flow.  You can't have a river of blood, vomit, or anything else other than water or magma right now.  So what's the basis of saying it's going to be as versatile as magma?  Furthermore, I think everyone can understand that the current tracking problems of contaminants and dwarves getting covered in anything that will stick is not the intended behavior.  Once contaminants are handled properly, unless your working hard to get your dwarves to spread it around and not clean it, you probably aren't going to be tracking filth all over the place.  And if you are working hard to get your fortress covered in it, your dwarves are probably going to be miserable, disease-ridden wretches who will die out in a season anyway, which I think would make it more trouble than it's worth, no matter how funny you think it is.
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Bronzebeard

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2010, 11:01:36 pm »

Quote
If, in your experience, fecal humor is such a small, specific subsection of humor that you basically can't find it unless you are looking for it, why do you think that including sewage in DF is going to suddenly make the forums turn into a giant shit-joke?

And on what basis are you saying feces (which isn't what this topic is about, specifically the previous topic was full of people who couldn't get over the fact that the original post said feces, even though everyone in the topic was willing to refer to it in less specific terms such as sewage or filth) will be as versatile as magma and then saying it's likely to spread around "just like blood and other contaminants"?  After all, that's pretty contradictory; contaminants can't flow.  You can't have a river of blood, vomit, or anything else other than water or magma right now.  So what's the basis of saying it's going to be as versatile as magma?  Furthermore, I think everyone can understand that the current tracking problems of contaminants and dwarves getting covered in anything that will stick is not the intended behavior.  Once contaminants are handled properly, unless your working hard to get your dwarves to spread it around and not clean it, you probably aren't going to be tracking filth all over the place.  And if you are working hard to get your fortress covered in it, your dwarves are probably going to be miserable, disease-ridden wretches who will die out in a season anyway, which I think would make it more trouble than it's worth, no matter how funny you think it is.
Aye-aye, Ilmoran.
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Vester

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2010, 11:18:07 pm »

*snip*

Oh my god, that is the most triumphant example of the slippery slope fallacy I have ever, ever seen.
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Rotten

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2010, 11:29:30 pm »

*snip*
I'm pretty tired right now (half past midnight here) but did you just say that adding sewage to DF would fill the forums with child porn?

Whaaa?

Also, you misunderstood my analogy. What I was replying to was the accusation that sewage would inspire a certain genre of jokes. Though that is true, it's not a good enough reason to just scrap the entire idea completely, just like the fact that a small (OK, large) section of the internet is full of porn and rape doesn't mean that the entire internet should be taken down.
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True, but at a certain velocity the resulting explosion expels invader-bits at fatal speeds. You don't want to be dropping trogdolyte-shaped shrapnel bombs into your boneworks.
Only in Dwarf Fortress...

Bronzebeard

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2010, 12:47:58 am »

It's half-past 1 AM here, but based on what I read, I think Deathworks was attempting an abstract overview of the arguments presented in halfhearted protest to the idea of incorporating feces into the game:

Quote
Secondly, like it or not, we are influenced by our everyday experiences, and fecal humor is about the lowest, cheapest humor I know of presented for immature boys in its own subgenre in manga and basically nowhere else except some extreme erotic material or maybe an occasional bit of hospital criticism. All the other extreme subjects we encounter in Dwarf Fortress and the discussions here either have no common image at all ("magma" is not a regular in average popular media) or have a wider or even positive application in popular culture ("violence" and "evilness" are common feature in most of our average entertainment as well, and also a hallmark of things like anti-war media, which therefore give the concepts the potential for a positive reading). That is the difference I see between it and any other aspects we have.

From what I understood, here he says that fecal humor is for the immature and presented only in some manga and 2girls1cup-esque porn... and that the other "extreme" subjects -- I'm assuming gore, for I can think of little else -- have no "common image", or occur that frequently (?), or occur very frequently and even positively in popular culture before listing "violence and "evilness" as examples in common entertainment or crude cudgels used by anti-war activists to depict troops. :-\ I imagine. Which "make for positive reading" (I'm assuming this is said to contrast feces, which does not make for positive reading, coalescing with the final sentence regarding their differences).

Quote
Third, yes, the internet is large. Thanks to governments using child pornography as a means to get their censorship legislation into place instead of making agreements to internationally persecute child molestors and in doing so shut down the offending sites, it is also probably full of child pornography. Do you want nearly every thread to contain at least one person showing off some photos of a real life child getting raped? Yes, it is out there, but do we want to have it here? And even if you don't want to go for such illegal things, I am sure that among the tons of pornography/erotic on the internet, there are things that will make you sick as well. They are there, but do you want to see them in unrelated threads here on the forums, just because someone considers them a cool "meme"?

Here he takes a different road on the internet's baser content and apparently accuses governments for using that content (i.e. child porn) as a scapegoat for passing censorship legislation to sites instead of micromanaging each case of such content on these sites -- and I'm presuming the sites on hand here are torrent sites or boards like 4chan -- internationally (a thing, frankly, impossible for a number of reasons). He then goes on to question the reader if the cost of allowing these sites to be (thereby, allowing said bad content to exist because he's already defined it as an inevitability of these sites) is worth it, which is puzzling, because he first bids the reader sympathy for a medium polluted by a few bad apples resulting in strict government enaction to suppress it completely before justifying that harsh and unreasonable means-to-an-end, after all. He finishes this paragraph with embellishing the potential for bad content and whether or not you want it in an unrelated forum thread simply because it exists for someone to find it a "cool meme" and eventually bring it up. Quite frankly, though, were the two even this comparable I would find a reference to poop much more tolerable than, say, a fun picture of a child being raped here and again.

Quote
And the problem with feces is that they are likely to be as flexible as magma, so that "Apply poo!" probably would work as well and as versatile as "Apply magma!". Therefore, it is likely that it will be spread around just like blood and other contaminants are spread around in the game, until you have everything covered in it.

Finally, he takes a more direct approach by pointing out that feces could be as useful or "flexible" as magma and, because of this, it's likely that it will spread around like blood or vomit (?). Last I checked, however, my dwarves nor rooms happen to be coated in blood or vomit (not that it even applies to feces if they occupy a single tile, such as under a toilet, as opposed to spilling haphazardly when elicited by a given action -- a steel sword gutting a dwarf in the case of blood; a dwarf seeing daylight for the first time in the case of vomit), but when there happens to be a bit of it somewhere, my dwarves usually clean it up.

Was I in the ballpark at all? And if so, proceed. :P
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Cruxador

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2010, 01:14:49 am »

Here he takes a different road on the internet's baser content and apparently accuses governments for using that content (i.e. child porn) as a scapegoat for passing censorship legislation to sites instead of micromanaging each case of such content on these sites -- and I'm presuming the sites on hand here are torrent sites or boards like 4chan -- internationally (a thing, frankly, impossible for a number of reasons). He then goes on to question the reader if the cost of allowing these sites to be (thereby, allowing said bad content to exist because he's already defined it as an inevitability of these sites) is worth it, which is puzzling, because he first bids the reader sympathy for a medium polluted by a few bad apples resulting in strict government enaction to suppress it completely before justifying that harsh and unreasonable means-to-an-end, after all. He finishes this paragraph with embellishing the potential for bad content and whether or not you want it in an unrelated forum thread simply because it exists for someone to find it a "cool meme" and eventually bring it up. Quite frankly, though, were the two even this comparable I would find a reference to poop much more tolerable than, say, a fun picture of a child being raped here and again.
looked to me like he was referring to the recent EU blocking of CP sites, and using that to suggest that there is more bad stuff on the internet than meets the eye.

*snip*

Oh my god, that is the most triumphant example of the slippery slope fallacy I have ever, ever seen.
It seems to me more that he rambles off topic than that it's a coherent fallacy.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 01:17:02 am by Cruxador »
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DG

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Re: Would you support adding waste/sewage?
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2010, 01:40:39 am »

LordSlowpoke brings up a good point.

What should be the proper priority for a waste system? How many of these items (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev.html) is it more important than?

Why is fecal matter essential to a waste system? Alternatives have been brought up in this thread

Why should Toady implement something so divisive?


You know, the whole "Do female dwarves have beards or not?" debate was about as vociferous.

:) Incorporate female dwarven beards, multiplayer and graphics into this and you'd have the most divisive thing ever.
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