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I support adding creature waste to the game

134 (46.9%)

I do NOT support adding creature waste to the game

86 (30.1%)

I would not mind, but do not care

37 (12.9%)

Other

3 (1%)

In the distant future, but not anytime soon. (You should vote yes instead of this, but it was called for.)

26 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 285

[DG]

In the not too distant future...

"Hey, dude...Have you played DF?"
"DF?"
"Dwarf Fortress!"
"Oh...Is that the game where you save up turds to drown stuff with?"
"Yeah, man!"

What, so adding waste to the game will suddenly make it all about waste? Gee, what happened to the dwarves, the magma, the forging, the fighting, and everything else? Oh, I guess it's all just a grand backdrop to what DF is all about: poop!

Oh, don't take it so seriously. I just have less faith in people than you do.

[roguester]

I'm going to propose an alternate system where workshops create waste.

Kitchen scraps, leftover plant matter from farmer's workshops, mills, and stills, inedible bits from the butcher are all created under normal operation and have to be dealt with before they start creating miasma and disease. This creates the need for a sewage system without baiting immaturity.

This.

Then Toady could add, as he saw fit:

• The cleaning job requiring a bucket of water, and producing a bucket of contaminated water.
• A "sanitary zone" where dwarves go to "clean self", where contaminants and other waste materials are dumped.
• Waste and contaminants causing miasma and disease when that's implemented.
• The "clean self" job producing a new contaminant (filth, waste, whatever you want to call it.)

You could have the need for, and the possibility of, a working sewage system with no actual fecal matter being produced.

[GlyphGryph]

The only problem with that system I could see is that it sidesteps the benefits of manure as fertilizer and of animals in general needing to be more cared for/taken care of.

It also couldn't be turned into a more general purpose molting/laying system like other waste systems could.

Still, I don't think its a bad idea. If opposition to it is really that strong, it would be an acceptable compromise, I think. It would accomplish most of what I'd want from such a system.

[riznar]

Riznar - most of the benefits, perhaps, but it wouldn't exactly scale up the same way. Still, its a good idea, I think. Once a system is set to handle materials like this I think it would be nice to add, since I doubt creature waste will be enough to fill a sewer what with it probably only happening once or twice a year.

Most of the problems in DF don't scale linearly. Simply put I think feces is more trouble than it's worth, if you want a sewage system for Aburdly Spaceous Sewers this provides.

The only problem with that system I could see is that it sidesteps the benefits of manure as fertilizer and of animals in general needing to be more cared for/taken care of.

Plant remains and animal remains could be used in compost piles/barrels.

Chicken coups would be a workshop that takes up to 10 chickens, like weapon traps now. Harvesting could be done by abstracting the milking code, or general workshop code.

I would also support a more generalized animal pen, because goddamn them clogging up my dining room is annoying.

[Retro]

I would say that I would support waste if it was not an object.

The use of bathrooms and the like could be used by a dwarf simply going there without creating a 'poop' item or anything like that. If there is no bathroom, dwarves would simply get bad thoughts at being inconvenienced. As for animals, perhaps if the player doesn't create a pen, dwarves get more bad thoughts about the stench in the fortress or similar. If a farmer needs manure, I'd be fine with that being an object created by a farmer visiting the pen and then moving right to the farm plots.

I do support creating a system for objects that spawn babies, though (ie. chickens leave egg, uncooked/eaten egg creates baby).

[Mfbrew]

Waste management is great:

-fertilizer
-primitive biological warfare
-building sewer systems
-adds realism/simulationism. (can you imagine years down the road, sneaking into a fortress in adventurer mode, waiting for the guard to go take a crap, and slipping into the treasure vault? Maybe even cooking something into his meal to encourage it)

The only downsides are that it eats up valuable dwarf productive-time, and there are a million more important things to add first.

[Footkerchief]

The "Yes" options for this one kinda imply that this feature would be forced on the people who don't want it.  I don't know if that was deliberate, but it's definitely not realistic.  This poll is a step back from the other one in that regard.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Trying to be optimistic, I voted "Yes" this time. But as I have explained before, it is very important for me that we find a way to curb the resulting onslaught of immaturity that might occur (I am not sad if I am wrong and it does not occur at all, of course).

Personally, I would favor a semi-liquid system as it allows for a realistic simulation of your water-driven sewer system, forcing you to thing about flow directions and the like in your design (with evolving physics, this may range from a simple setup that needs to get flushed with water from a fresh water reservoire regularly to something that efficiently uses the flow dynamics to have the waste move away most of the time by itself.

One aspect I also consider very important/interesting is waste working as a very strong contaminant, biologically poisoning food, drink, and water it comes into contact with. Considering that such contamination would, as far as I know, in real life most probably cause diarrhea, which is indeed something that can cause death via dehydration (and still does today in many parts of the world!). Just think about all the efforts to get clean drinking water for the poor parts of the real world.

A minor glitch may cause a little setback in your industries and send a few dwarves to the hospital, but any continuous misuse or major catastrophe should pose a serious threat to the continued existence of your fortress.

On the other hand, outdoor waste should degrade into rich soil without greater problems, so allowing dwarves to default to simply defecate outdoors if no better solution is available. However, as contaminants spread (currently actually a bit too much), while this is no problem with a fortress of 20 or 30 dwarves, 100 dwarves should probably create so much refuse that any stray or wild animal may begin to spread it into the fortress proper.

In addition, even if not causing any direct harm, the confrontation with waste should cause a negative thought for any dwarf, except maybe for rare dwarves with a scatological inclination ("scat" is a term some people in the real world see in a positive and sexual way, so I think it would be an option to add to the diversification of the dwarves).

Besides the outdoor, dwarves would prefer using a special toilet, which is a frame created either at the masonry or carpentry, just as a well is preferred over a murky pool. This works as a floor tile for walking, but when used, the waste is transported to the tile below it, so it needs to be built atop an empty space, just like a well.

An interesting question would be how to handle cat toilets. Maybe using a zone designation over sand/soil could be an approach.

Deathworks

[Quatch]

You forgot the "not now" option - people often vote against something if they think it does not have immediate priority.

Edit: As is perfectly demonstrated by the above post.

Actually, I meant no. Just bringing up another related realism problem.

One interesting thought I had related to the eatting/sleeping schedule:  Waste production/using the facilities should occur paired with either the eat or sleep task, before or after one of them, based on the dwarfs preference.  That would assist with fortress layout (put appropriate areas relatively close to dining hall and sleeping quarters; properly plumbed, of course) and not having the problem of a dwarf stops a job, goes to sleep, starts the job again when he wakes up, gets tile done on the job, and then goes to the facilities.

This is actually the bigger problem in my opinion. Partially addressed in df31.


I mean, on the whole, its more realism, which is good, but there is a reason it doesn't come up in books/movies/etc as part of everyday life.

[Zangi]

I'm going to propose an alternate system where workshops create waste.

Kitchen scraps, leftover plant matter from farmer's workshops, mills, and stills, inedible bits from the butcher are all created under normal operation and have to be dealt with before they start creating miasma and disease. This creates the need for a sewage system without baiting immaturity.

This.

Then Toady could add, as he saw fit:

• The cleaning job requiring a bucket of water, and producing a bucket of contaminated water.
• A "sanitary zone" where dwarves go to "clean self", where contaminants and other waste materials are dumped.
• Waste and contaminants causing miasma and disease when that's implemented.
• The "clean self" job producing a new contaminant (filth, waste, whatever you want to call it.)

You could have the need for, and the possibility of, a working sewage system with no actual fecal matter being produced.

I support the clean self action also including the create waste action.  And the workshops generate waste idea too.

Instead of building a toilet for dwarves... build a shower, bathtub, or just use a bucket for cleaning purposes.  Legendary public bath.  And this stuff can feed into whatever sewer system you have, one way or another.  Or just pile up in buckets waiting to be emptied...

Animals tend to clean themselves, a lot, having all the time in the world... and tracking over all sorts of blood all over the place...  I'm sure they'll generate enough waste on their own...

[Xzalander]

Like I said in the other thread, having every animal in the Embark Zone create waste will contribute too heavily to any FPS drops. Already DF is using 1gb of Ram while not under pressure (just going by my system) so to help alleviate this it should be restricted to Dwarves, Goblins, Orcs, Forgotten Beasts and a small selection of creatures like Cows, Deer or horses.

I've chosen Goblins, Orcs and Forgotten Beasts as a main suggestion as you'd imagine them to be quite dirty as species and besides thered be nothing cooler than to breach a forgotten beasts home only to find the beasts was literally a beast and lived in a cave of filth.

[Ilmoran]

Like I said in the other thread, having every animal in the Embark Zone create waste will contribute too heavily to any FPS drops. Already DF is using 1gb of Ram while not under pressure (just going by my system) so to help alleviate this it should be restricted to Dwarves, Goblins, Orcs, Forgotten Beasts and a small selection of creatures like Cows, Deer or horses.

I've chosen Goblins, Orcs and Forgotten Beasts as a main suggestion as you'd imagine them to be quite dirty as species and besides thered be nothing cooler than to breach a forgotten beasts home only to find the beasts was literally a beast and lived in a cave of filth.

I don't think every animal generating waste would be a huge hit to FPS, but nobody will really know until it's done.  As far as I know, the major contributors to FPS hits are pathing and liquid movement.  Assuming that even if the waste created is treated as a liquid, I can't see a single creature generating more than 1/7, so there'd be no flow to contribute to FPS.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Like I said in the other thread, having every animal in the Embark Zone create waste will contribute too heavily to any FPS drops. Already DF is using 1gb of Ram while not under pressure (just going by my system) so to help alleviate this it should be restricted to Dwarves, Goblins, Orcs, Forgotten Beasts and a small selection of creatures like Cows, Deer or horses.

I've chosen Goblins, Orcs and Forgotten Beasts as a main suggestion as you'd imagine them to be quite dirty as species and besides thered be nothing cooler than to breach a forgotten beasts home only to find the beasts was literally a beast and lived in a cave of filth.

Mmmhhh, if you want to have such a restriction, how about dwarves, all tame animals (including all stray, pet, and working), and invaders and uninvited guests. Excluded would be wild animals and merchants. (I would definitely want cats and dogs in this, as this is one aspect where the two differ significantly)

However, I am personally a bit torn on that question. While I see the problem of FPS and resources, on the other hand, there is actually a lot of potential.

For instance, hunters could use the waste of wild, huntable animals to find the resting places of game (once the AI stops cheating :) :) ).

Deathworks

[DalGren]

I'm going to propose an alternate system where workshops create waste.

Kitchen scraps, leftover plant matter from farmer's workshops, mills, and stills, inedible bits from the butcher are all created under normal operation and have to be dealt with before they start creating miasma and disease. This creates the need for a sewage system without baiting immaturity.

This.

Then Toady could add, as he saw fit:

• The cleaning job requiring a bucket of water, and producing a bucket of contaminated water.
• A "sanitary zone" where dwarves go to "clean self", where contaminants and other waste materials are dumped.
• Waste and contaminants causing miasma and disease when that's implemented.
• The "clean self" job producing a new contaminant (filth, waste, whatever you want to call it.)

You could have the need for, and the possibility of, a working sewage system with no actual fecal matter being produced.

This.
I'd make it optional, but this is the right way to do it. I'd even try it (even if I don't think I can pull it off)

[Askot Bokbondeler]

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