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[Andir]

So we all sell to our oppressive Chinese masters instead. I fail to see the problem here.

That is a rather concerning side of it.. yes.  Considering how much you all hate how we are treated in America, China is by far a better model of citizen welfare.

I don't know where to begin on how wrong that statement is...

I'm not talking about social welfare (social services, etc.) I'm talking about work conditions, human rights, and all that.

You think China is a good example of human rights and work conditions?

Dude...

I apparently left my sarcasm tag in my other pants... I figured it was obvious.

Edit: ugh... It's sad that I have to edit this in... because I know someone is going to misinterpret.  By definition, communism has the highest social welfare... because well, everyone is taken care of to the best ability of the government (theoretically) but in practice they usually hide part of their labor force in Siberia some remote part of the mountain country and only show thriving towns through strict controls on publication and censorship.

I didn't want to confuse social welfare with human rights, because although China has the lowest percentage of their population living in the calculated poverty line, they are not treated as well as countries whom have a lower poverty percentage.

[Aqizzar]

Also, those countries make their living off the efforts of capitalism... the capitalism that's driving our country to the forefront of pretty much every field.  Yes, there are things we've learned from Japan as far as car manufacturing processes are concerned.  Sweden's big exports (machinery, resources) go to fuel this capitalist evil and keeps all those people making an average under $40K/year.  Denmark provides this capitalist machine with machinery, pharmaceuticals and other things as well.  Finland... resources (wood) and even rifles... without our insatiable demand for stuff, the countries you listed would likely be up the creek without a paddle trying to find another "greedy" group of people to send their resources and items to.

Let's try this again.  You're conflating "capitalism" on a national scale with "social welfare" on the internal scale.  You have both, and they are two different things.  Every nation with a functioning economy exports stuff to other markets.  Nobody is arguing against that or calling it a bad thing.  It's not even "capitalism" because there is no formal international economy.  It's just trade.

As for reliance on exports, Germany is actually the largest exporting nation in the world, ahead of China and then the U.S.  And they take famously good care of their people.  So there you go, the world's three largest exporters by a very close margin have three different social welfare systems.  I'd rather see America more like Germany than China, because that is in fact a real option.

For the record, America is the largest importer of goods, at about three times that of the #2, Germany ironically.  If no-holds-barred American capitalism weren't outsourcing our entire industrial economy to China, we might actually be able to afford "socialism" like a guaranteed health system.  Interesting dichotomy that.

[Andir]

Let's try this again.  You're conflating "capitalism" on a national scale with "social welfare" on the internal scale.  You have both, and they are two different things.  Every nation with a functioning economy exports stuff to other markets.  Nobody is arguing against that or calling it a bad thing.  It's not even "capitalism" because there is no formal international economy.  It's just trade.

As for reliance on exports, Germany is actually the largest exporting nation in the world, ahead of China and then the U.S.  And they take famously good care of their people.  So there you go, the world's three largest exporters by a very close margin have three different social welfare systems.  I'd rather see America more like Germany than China, because that is in fact a real option.

For the record, America is the largest importer of goods, at about three times that of the #2, Germany ironically.  If no-holds-barred American capitalism weren't outsourcing our entire industrial economy to China, we might actually be able to afford "socialism" like a guaranteed health system.  Interesting dichotomy that.

I believe I said that "our evil capitalist" society was providing an outlet for all those country's exports... maybe something was lost in the length of the post(?)  (I mainly mentioned that because piecewise brought up capitalism as something evil.)  Also, last I checked, it was China/Germany/US (exports) and US/China/Germany (imports)... but it may flip flop from time to time.  (also, last I checked was a couple hours ago... and just now to verify )

There are a lot of things we could do to allow more money for social benefit, but I'm not really convinced that it's needed.  We have quite possibly the best (albeit expensive) health care in the world.  I'm personally not averse to having a health care system, but I want choices and responsibility in life and if it were done I want it to be done properly.  Right now, I don't think that our current state of affairs can handle it.  The politicians are too wrapped up in hanging on emotional strings to get re-elected they'll promise the world.  With Social Security deficiencies, Welfare deficiencies, and pretty much everything started by Congress in serious dire straits... I seriously don't think they can manage health care especially when they continue to fight and bicker over political party lines simply because of the line.  Heck, they don't even manage stuff now.  As I stated earlier, they just create and delegate it off.  It's like being the kid in a dysfunctional family who have a psychopathic nanny.

I don't think it proper to "Robin Hood" the country either.  Personally, I think our Congress can do more to promote competition and control "overly successful" (anti-competitive) companies better but they are too busy trying to please the lobbyists.  Competition would bring lower wages for top execs and possibly the elimination of some of them.  One personal example I know of from a friend... UPS has been eliminating a lot of redundant and middle management jobs because of competition form FedEx.  They've offered early retirement for as many as possible and relocate others into positions where they could be used.  They've been streamlining a lot of the processes and giving lower level employees better compensation because of it...because they are losing employees to competition.  I think they could provide better services to unemployed to help them find jobs and generally a lot of things that don't involve general takeovers.  Hell, I'm getting off topic again... and it's late so I'm going to bed.

[Neruz]

I'm just going to sit here in stunned silence at the sheer magnitude of what Andir has just posted.

I mean, Religion and whatnot is one thing, but how the- wha- huh- i don't even?....


How, how in the name of all that is holy can someone, born and educated in this age, have such a medieval perception of reality? Even China as a better understanding of socioeconomics than Andir is showing, and that is goddamn terrifying.

[fenrif]

We have quite possibly the best (albeit expensive) health care in the world.

Noone is arguing with how expensive it is, but you definatly don't have the best in the world.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Ten years ago the US was ranked 37th by the World Health Orginization.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Maps-and-Data/Performance-Snapshots/View-All.aspx?pscollection=International+Comparisons Three years ago the Commonwealth Fund did a comparison of the US, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and Germany. Lets just say you didn't come first.

Yeah you have good hospitals for the rich and famous, but they aren't representative of your entire health care system.

[Luke_Prowler]

I'm pretty sure Andir is getting all his information second hand from someone who's full of crap.

[Neruz]

Yeah, America's health care is an utter joke for a 1st world country. Considering how heavily skewed it is, you could probably argue that it's pretty poor for a third world country. How anyone could think it's good, albiet the best in the world is mindboggling.

[Pathos]

Can I just say that in a completely capitalist system, EVERY true capitalist (i.e. fundamentalist) would count as lawful evil / neutral evil / true neutral. It's just the nature of making cash.

[Luke_Prowler]

Actually I'd say a completely capitalist system would be more chaotic evil/ chaotic neutral, since it's without regulation.

[Heron TSG]

Lassez-faire capitalism is pretty ugly, as shown by The Jungle, but that may be the author's socialism speaking. I do know that being an immigrant sucked back when there was no minimum wage or health regulation.

[G-Flex]

We have quite possibly the best (albeit expensive) health care in the world.

Noone is arguing with how expensive it is, but you definatly don't have the best in the world.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Ten years ago the US was ranked 37th by the World Health Orginization.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Maps-and-Data/Performance-Snapshots/View-All.aspx?pscollection=International+Comparisons Three years ago the Commonwealth Fund did a comparison of the US, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and Germany. Lets just say you didn't come first.

Yeah you have good hospitals for the rich and famous, but they aren't representative of your entire health care system.

See, that's the thing. The US does have very good healthcare. You just can't afford it (and neither can I).

[Neruz]

We have quite possibly the best (albeit expensive) health care in the world.

Noone is arguing with how expensive it is, but you definatly don't have the best in the world.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html Ten years ago the US was ranked 37th by the World Health Orginization.

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Maps-and-Data/Performance-Snapshots/View-All.aspx?pscollection=International+Comparisons Three years ago the Commonwealth Fund did a comparison of the US, UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and Germany. Lets just say you didn't come first.

Yeah you have good hospitals for the rich and famous, but they aren't representative of your entire health care system.

See, that's the thing. The US does have very good healthcare. You just can't afford it (and neither can I).

Which, when you think about it, isn't very good healthcare at all.

[sneakey pete]

See, that's the thing. The US does have very good healthcare. You just can't afford it (and neither can I).

So does every african dictator's country. as long as your him and get flown to your choice of university research hospitals in europe.

[DJ]

Free healthcare and free education leads to higher productivity per capita, which means everyone is better off.

Free basic necessities for the unemployed reduces crime rates, which again means everyone is better off.

[Leafsnail]

Andir - stop whining.  You failed to prevent a "socialist" government from coming to power, therefore you deserve everything you get from them.  If you're annoyed about it, go and become president.  If you don't, you're just lazy and shiftless.