Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Andir]

Basically, you need to forget "The American Dream" altogether.  It's a bunch of romantic nonsense cooked up by exceptionalist boosters for another time and age, and was myopic bullcrap then too.

So you'd rather live your life for the homeland... doing whatever is asked of you all for the sake of "King and Country."  It's either that or you apply to the school that says that we should take our $50 paycheck and give $1 to 50 people no matter how much they contributed.

Which is it?

[Aqizzar]

I don't even know what you think you're talking about now, but I'll try to answer.  It's neither.  Again, the world is not a binary choice between slavery and whatever you seem to think communism is.  We can have a world where you're free to succeed and be rich by your own efforts, but if you fail, you won't be completely destitute.  I don't know what's so damn confusing about this.

[Andir]

I don't even know what you think you're talking about now, but I'll try to answer.  It's neither.  Again, the world is not a binary choice between slavery and whatever you seem to think communism is.  We can have a world where you're free to succeed and be rich by your own efforts, but if you fail, you won't be completely destitute.  I don't know what's so damn confusing about this.

How can everyone have a chance of being successful, declare bankruptcy when that happens and have no worries in life?  That's what you're asking for.  If nobody has to worry about starving to death or being able to afford a lifesaving operation, where's the motivation to continue doing things that you may not like doing but must be done?  I'll tell you right now there are people who, with the knowledge that they can never starve to death would do nothing but play Dwarf Fortress all day long until they got bored of it and go on to the next game... TV show... or what have you.  Also, what's to stop these same people from having 5 kids for whom they don't have to worry about paying for their dentist appointments or having to take responsible choices like ... I don't know... not having another?  What are you going to do if they refuse to work?  Put them in prison?  You couldn't execute them... cause that's inhumane... even if they are draining everyone else.

The fact of the matter is that we don't currently have the technology, the capacity, nor the capability to provide what you ask for.  Yeah, it's not a binary choice, but it's also not a zero sum game.

[Cheeetar]

What? I think you're overestimating the scope of the UHC, which as far as I can tell only provides healthcare, as opposed to electricity, food, computers, luxury goods etc.

[Andir]

What? I think you're overestimating the scope of the UHC, which as far as I can tell only provides healthcare, as opposed to electricity, food, computers, luxury goods etc.

No, I'm talking about what Aqizzar said...

We can have a world where you're free to succeed and be rich by your own efforts, but if you fail, you won't be completely destitute.

Being completely destitute would mean having to ask someone for food, a place to live, and what have you... in order to not die.

So what he's petitioning for is a world where someone wouldn't have to ask for help to survive.

[Aqizzar]

How can everyone have a chance of being successful, declare bankruptcy when that happens and have no worries in life?  That's what you're asking for.  If nobody has to worry about starving to death or being able to afford a lifesaving operation, where's the motivation to continue doing things that you may not like doing but must be done?

The fact of the matter is that we don't currently have the technology, the capacity, nor the capability to provide what you ask for.  Yeah, it's not a binary choice, but it's also not a zero sum game.

You've clearly never heard of the nations of Sweden, Norway, Finland, Switzerland, Denmark, or Japan.  And don't try to tell me that America is different from the rest of the world which has figured this stuff out.  The only real difference is numbers, and America has a lot more money than any of those nations.  Believe it or not, and I know you don't, but guaranteeing people that they will never starve to death, be homeless, or die for lack of ability to pay for care will not turn the majority of the population into robotic slobs.  A subsistence living is just that, and the very same principles of that "American Dream" you keep lionizing is exactly what makes those other nations that insure their populations against being terminally poor among the most industrious in the world.

Just because you're not going to starve, doesn't mean you won't work.

[Cheeetar]

So what he's petitioning for is a world where someone wouldn't have to ask for help to survive.

That's quite a leap you made.

[piecewise]

So what he's petitioning for is a world where someone wouldn't have to ask for help to survive.

That's quite a leap you made.

Andir as nice as the dream you're pushing sounds I'd like to just take a moment to remind you of the reality that we're currently living in. A reality where the greed and "capitalism" of one bank has basically crippled the entire economy of half the world. A reality where corporations are treated better then people and get rich by gambling on their own failure as well as on your life. A reality where hard work and perseverance mean pretty much nothing in the grand scheme of things and where the american dream is nothing but a carrot on a stick to keep the abjectly poor loyal to the obscenely rich. Its a world where entire towns, entire cities dry up and die because some guy at the head of a company wanted just a few more million dollars to roll around in. Its not a capitalism any more, its verging on a plutocracy.

[Andir]

Just because you're not going to starve, doesn't mean you won't work.

Maybe not you... but I can guarantee that there are people who would see it as an opportunity.

Also, those countries make their living off the efforts of capitalism... the capitalism that's driving our country to the forefront of pretty much every field.  Yes, there are things we've learned from Japan as far as car manufacturing processes are concerned.  Sweden's big exports (machinery, resources) go to fuel this capitalist evil and keeps all those people making an average under $40K/year.  Denmark provides this capitalist machine with machinery, pharmaceuticals and other things as well.  Finland... resources (wood) and even rifles... without our insatiable demand for stuff, the countries you listed would likely be up the creek without a paddle trying to find another "greedy" group of people to send their resources and items to.

Now, I'm not saying that we'd vanish of the face of the Earth, but the fact that they are so successful at exports to the US is because of what happens here.  Without the competition and "greed" put forth on a daily basis, these countries would be at a loss for jobs and would decline both their ability to support that lifestyle and maintain those average salaries.

Also, factor in the fact that none of them really have to have a standing military for fear of someone invading them... not because the world is a better place magically, but because nobody dare try it today (and you know people like Saddam, and recently Russia were trying...) because we'd literally destroy them.  If not by military force, but by tariff and economic woe.

Yes, I'd argue that the countries you listed actually benefit from the way we live in so many ways that's it ridiculous to think that we can do what they are doing without having our own source of major export and protection.

[Andir]

So what he's petitioning for is a world where someone wouldn't have to ask for help to survive.

That's quite a leap you made.

Look up the meaning of destitute.  His word not mine.

[Vester]

So we all sell to our oppressive Chinese masters instead. I fail to see the problem here.

[Andir]

So we all sell to our oppressive Chinese masters instead. I fail to see the problem here.

That is a rather concerning side of it.. yes.  Considering how much you all hate how we are treated in America, China is by far a better model of citizen welfare.

[Luke_Prowler]

So we all sell to our oppressive Chinese masters instead. I fail to see the problem here.

That is a rather concerning side of it.. yes.  Considering how much you all hate how we are treated in America, China is by far a better model of citizen welfare.

I don't know where to begin on how wrong that statement is...

[Andir]

So we all sell to our oppressive Chinese masters instead. I fail to see the problem here.

That is a rather concerning side of it.. yes.  Considering how much you all hate how we are treated in America, China is by far a better model of citizen welfare.

I don't know where to begin on how wrong that statement is...

I'm not talking about social welfare (social services, etc.) I'm talking about work conditions, human rights, and all that.

[fenrif]

So we all sell to our oppressive Chinese masters instead. I fail to see the problem here.

That is a rather concerning side of it.. yes.  Considering how much you all hate how we are treated in America, China is by far a better model of citizen welfare.

I don't know where to begin on how wrong that statement is...

I'm not talking about social welfare (social services, etc.) I'm talking about work conditions, human rights, and all that.

You think China is a good example of human rights and work conditions?

Dude...