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[Smitehappy]

So your point is that if I, a citizen of the US, was fined 1,000 dollars for something I found reasonable I would be screwed? No, I would not be. I could challenge the fine or take it to a higher court outside my city. Apathy is not an excuse when it comes to the law. Just cause you're too lazy to fight something doesn't mean you're not free.

[smigenboger]

I guess I may add I was once pulled over on foot for running, with my hood up, rather fast, at 2 in the morning. Kinda startled me though, since I was actually running from work to a friend's house to get completely trashed. They didn't ask for ID, but they asked my name and reason for running. I would say that was reasonable suspicion, though I'm not sure if it would have been illegal to make a dead sprint instead

[bjlong]

Actually, yeah, that's resisting arrest.

But if you've got nothing to hide and they ask for your ID, then you might want to consider not giving it to them--politely, of course. If you're brought in, call the ACLU. They'll pay for a lawyer for you, most cases.

[Aqizzar]

So your point is that if I, a citizen of the US, was fined 1,000 dollars for something I found reasonable I would be screwed? No, I would not be. I could challenge the fine or take it to a higher court outside my city. Apathy is not an excuse when it comes to the law. Just cause you're too lazy to fight something doesn't mean you're not free.

It's very much an excuse.  It takes literally years of going back and forth to several courts and law offices, which the system most certainly will not tell you how to do; convincing the higher courts to take up the case at all, because they don't have to if they don't think it's unclear enough to rule on; thousands of dollars to hire lawyers who actually know what they're talking about to do that for you, because you can't just call up the higher court and have them take it; after all that, overcoming the very simple fact that "Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't mean a whole lot when the officer saying "yes, he did it" is sacrosanct proof of guilt, with the burden on you to prove him wrong; and as quite a few people find out rather rudely, those wacky mix-and-match laws that Leo was talking about (defying the flag, for instance) still apply - if it's a law and you broke it, you're guilty, no matter how much the jury or judge agree that it's a stupid law.

When facing all that, taking the $1000 fine even when innocent just makes more sense.

[smigenboger]

Haha I was wondering if I could legally weasel my way out of the speeding ticket, but I'm sure there's no way that could've happened.

I though it was best to show our ID if you actually have nothing to hide, and politely turn them down if you do. Of course, I'm no law student

[LeoLeonardoIII]

So your point is that if I, a citizen of the US, was fined 1,000 dollars for something I found reasonable I would be screwed? No, I would not be. I could challenge the fine or take it to a higher court outside my city. Apathy is not an excuse when it comes to the law. Just cause you're too lazy to fight something doesn't mean you're not free.

Wrong. This is a bit of civic laziness. Just because there are checks and balances doesn't mean it's okay for them to put you through the wringer along the way. You go to court to fight it, you have to take the day off work, blow half your day standing around, all the worry and stress. Even if you're absolved of the original fine you're still out the time, money, and effort associated with availing yourself of those checks and balances.

And that assumes they work. Which is not a 100% guarantee.

And this isn't a fine for something that an individual finds reasonable but society at large thinks is abhorrent. It's not "oh hey man I think eating babies is totally fine" which is what your statement implies. It's a fine for doing Random Thing #37 that is not actually against any public good.

Please, please explain to me why wearing an American flag lapel pin should be illegal. Or why it's actually illegal in my town to spit on the floor of your own bus, not just a public transit bus. Why, if you venture into a public park and pick up a severed blade of grass, you can be fined up to $500. There is no justification for these petty laws.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I think the main thing to realize here is that every law, every office of the government, serves strictly and only its citizens interests and exists at our pleasure. So if we don't like something, we can step in and petition for change.

We just don't. Because you do not want to attract attention. That chilling effect is what we all suffer, it's not like we're actually being arrested for trampling a flag. It's the dark cloud standing over you.

[o_O[WTFace]]

I watched it and didn't actually see a dog getting shot "in front of the kids" or at all actually. I mean, am I missing something? What time did the dog get shot? They make this out to be this huge graphic warning deal, and I expected the police to be smacking the kids around with their dog's entrails, and I couldn't even notice when it happened.

1:03 exactly.  BarkBarkBarkBark BANG BANG no more barking.
I'm not sure the dogs were actually shot in front of the kids but they were shot offscreen.  The camera guy partially ducks for cover when that happens. 

As for the child endangerment thing, remember, the entire drug war is based on lying to people so often and so effectively that people actually believe it and have an emotional revulsion to anything they call a drug.  If you don't think marijuana is dangerous thats because your soft on crime and don't know what it takes to defend the country.  If the same science that built their guns and armor doesn't think marijuana is harmful thats because science is soft on crime and doesn't know what its talking about.  Admitting those people didn't actually put their children in danger (other then from the police) is admitting that millions of people have gone to prison for reasons known to be false. 

[Grakelin]

Please, please explain to me why wearing an American flag lapel pin should be illegal. Or why it's actually illegal in my town to spit on the floor of your own bus, not just a public transit bus. Why, if you venture into a public park and pick up a severed blade of grass, you can be fined up to $500. There is no justification for these petty laws.

Are any of these national laws? Because municipal by-laws are the easiest to change. Indeed, in the mid-1970s, one teenager changed the face of Vancouverite bowels forever when he won the fight to outlaw pay-to-use toilet stalls...

But that's a story for another day.

[Antsan]

Coming in with a SWAT-Team for drugs?
I'm from Germany so I don't know what the "war against drugs" is like in the USA, but this seems a little bit messed up to me.
I mean, those are *drugs*, not weapons or anything like that.
It seems so useless and out of scale. Why the hell would you use full force to get at some drug dealer? Seriously!

[ChairmanPoo]

sometimes they kill your dogs, sometimes your 7-y/o children. Either way no big deal.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

Coming in with a SWAT-Team for drugs?
I'm from Germany so I don't know what the "war against drugs" is like in the USA, but this seems a little bit messed up to me.
I mean, those are *drugs*, not weapons or anything like that.
It seems so useless and out of scale. Why the hell would you use full force to get at some drug dealer? Seriously!

The thinking goes that drug dealers / growers / etc will have guns, because drug dealing is such a deadly business. I'm not really sure. I just don't have any relevant experience to judge whether that assumption is correct here or not, or if that's the case with individual dealers vs. a gang.

[smigenboger]

The 'War on Drugs' is somewhat of a publicity stunt. If the government really wanted to crack down on certain drugs, they'd be gone by now.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

The 'War on Drugs' is somewhat of a publicity stunt. If the government really wanted to crack down on certain drugs, they'd be gone by now.

They do spend an awful lot of money on it. What do you think is the real reason?

[smigenboger]

Poor co-ordination? Too many politicians on drugs? Ties with the drug lords over in Mexico? I don't really know. I'd say if they really wanted to put things in the right direction, there needs to be more help for people using the drugs, instead of waiting for them to buy their required drug fix, and throwing them in jail for things they didn't necessarily want to continue.