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[varkarrus]

It is not a game, but you can make games and challenges in it for yourself. Why else would we create megaprojects and such?

[Krath]

Dwarf Fortress isn't a game. It's a way of life. A state of mind. Once you go Dwarf Fortress you can't go back.

[Corona688]

Will Wright was very vocal about considering the 1990s-era Sim series to be "toys" and not "games".

Interesting.  It seems apt -- a toy is something you fiddle with without specific rules...  but I'm not sure the distinction's that important, things can be both.  What's missing from simulation games isn't so much winning or losing conditions I think -- it may not stop you and say "game over" but you can certainly smash the setting into a state you can't recover from.  Or rules;  you're free to play as badly as you want in almost any game, you just won't win.    All that's missing is a rigid storyline.  So I'd still say Sim City and Dwarf Fortress are games.  And "toys".

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Allow me to clarify that I meant that I belong to those who enjoy simulation games like SimCity and therefore enjoy DF. That was the support I was talking about, not what DF should be called.

The thing about the toy was included in the manuals of several Maxis games, I think. SimEarth and SimLife had it, I think, but I am not really sure whether the original SimCity had it.

Deathworks

[sweitx]

Will Wright was very vocal about considering the 1990s-era Sim series to be "toys" and not "games".

Interesting.  It seems apt -- a toy is something you fiddle with without specific rules...  but I'm not sure the distinction's that important, things can be both.  What's missing from simulation games isn't so much winning or losing conditions I think -- it may not stop you and say "game over" but you can certainly smash the setting into a state you can't recover from.  Or rules;  you're free to play as badly as you want in almost any game, you just won't win.    All that's missing is a rigid storyline.  So I'd still say Sim City and Dwarf Fortress are games.  And "toys".

I think he's arguing from a definition point.
A toy is something you play game with.
A game is just something you play.
For example, a game have a set rule (like chess, you have 1 objective, a set of unchanging rules, etc).
A toy can have almost infinitely many objectives (you can't "win" playing a toy).  So for example of SimCity, it doesn't have a well defined objective, instead, you choose your own (most population, most dense, lowest traffic congestion, most efficient, least polluting, most polluting, highest traffic count, etc).

So by this standard, Dwarf Fortress is more like a toy (a REALLY complicated toy).

[G-Flex]

He also distinguished them as being "software toys" due to their purpose: Like toys people play with when they're kids, they're (in part) designed to familiarize the player with real-world processes, letting them play around with them and draw conclusions as a sort of learning experience.


I'd say this is at least partly true for Fortress Mode, since it's pretty heavy on the simulation and management, but not entirely true due to the seriously limited implementation of a lot of things, and the fantasy elements.

[KFK]

Like others in this thread, I tend to think it's important to define "game", but I tend to think DF will pass any just about any reasonable definition. I don't think it matters that there isn't a clearly defined goal from a design standpoint. That just leaves us the ability to define our own goals...and then the game is on; we make our choices within the range of legal moves, and the outcome is decided by the judges (in this case a very complex set of computer instructions).

What Dwarf Fortress is NOT is a virtual sport. Many computer games have a lot in common with sports. The campaign to Gears of War for instance is basically American Football: you win by reaching the goal line, and a bunch of big guys try to stop you. Everything else (like the story) is just there for decoration.  So many games follow this format, that it's understandable that someone would question whether or not Dwarf Fortress is a game at all.

[Raviaric]

DF is a racing game.

[alway]

DF is a racing game.

Well, now that genetics are in, I suppose it is. /badpun

[SirHoneyBadger]

DF is a hobby. Especially when you get into modding, and the Forums.

[Silleh Boy]

DF is a racing game.

That reminds me of something I said at one point.

God knows why I can remember that in an instant, but I couldn't remember that the word I was searching for, for defining something all of yesterday.


On topic, games are something you play to pass time and provide entertainment and/or a distraction.
People make a game out of some things, such as seeing how many times they can consecutively bounce a ball atop their head, or how many jacks they can catch. There's no arbitrary win or lose condition here. Winning and Losing are typically conditions brought about by adding competition, but competition does not make a game. A race is not typically viewed a game, but you can 'win' and 'lose' that.

For the most part, it's all down to being a matter of perception.