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Author Topic: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk  (Read 6028 times)

Aspgren

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 06:10:33 pm »

Did someone say ... Milk Moustache?
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Saint

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 10:55:38 pm »

Does this mean Dwarf Baby's drink milk booze in their bottles?
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 10:59:09 pm »

Does this mean Dwarf Baby's drink milk booze in their bottles?

While I haven't been looking too closely at the new version, in 40d, babies would complain about how they "hadn't had booze in a long time" (paraphrased), which implies they don't get fermented milk... and are angry about it.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 11:10:55 pm »

i read somewhere that vikings were lactose intolerant, and had to turn it into yogurt for consumption... dwarves are little vikings, right?

EDIT: quoting wikipedia:
Roman authors recorded that the people of northern Europe, particularly Britain  and Germany, drank unprocessed milk. This corresponds very closely with modern European distributions of lactose intolerance, where the people of Britain, Germany and Scandinavia  have a good tolerance, and those of southern Europe, especially Italy, have a poorer tolerance.[34]

:\. ok, have a cup of milk, urist
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:13:35 pm by Askot Bokbondeler »
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Joakim

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2010, 04:25:07 am »

Well *I* read somewhere that vikings gave milk to the Indians when they came to America. The Indians, who didn't drink milk and thus where lactose intolerant, thought they where poisoned and attacked. Dunno if it's true, but it's a pretty dwarfy story.

But yeah, all those barrels of blood that I don't know what to do with is kinda annoying.. :)
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Pilsu

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2010, 06:08:31 am »

If dwarves become capable of drinking milk, I should get a say in whether they're allowed to. It's a precious commodity and I don't want it squandered. We just got over dwarves eating my god damn maggots, I don't want them going back to undermining my cheese production.

Cows should be milkable more often. Not sure if the milk should be less valuable if so. Granted, modern cows produce way more than the cows of yore but once in 3 months is a little ridiculous.
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scira

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2010, 09:29:51 am »

Maybe cows should have a happiness meter. because great cheese comes from happy cows!

But maybe if drink mixing would ever be added then dwarves could mix milk with booze to make liqueurs.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2010, 11:52:30 am »

Cows should be milkable more often. Not sure if the milk should be less valuable if so. Granted, modern cows produce way more than the cows of yore but once in 3 months is a little ridiculous.

Doesn't the milkable token let you adjust how much milk you can get per year? 

[MILKABLE:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:MILK:20000]  is your typical cow milking token.

Replace that 20,000 with, say, 1, and you have cows that essentially give as much milk as your farmers have buckets and can squeeze.


edit: Just because I love needless maths...

1200 ticks in a day * 28 days in a month * 3 months = 100800... which is nowhere near 20,000.  Hmm... I would expect this to be based on (10 tick) turns like many other things, but that would make cows milkable somwhere closer to every 5-6 months.

Anyway, just replace that 20,000 with something like 1200, and you'll be fine.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 12:18:29 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #23 on: July 23, 2010, 09:21:25 pm »

BECAUSE I'M BORED!

I will now calculate out the proper amount of milk a cow should produce in a year.

According to Wikipedia, cows, depending on breed, can produce between 15,000 liters and 25,000 liters of milk per lactation cycle, which is basically a year.  I will assume on the low end, as these are modern cows we are talking about, and have been unnaturally selected for thousands of years to produce the most milk possible.  I will also assume, just for simplicity, that milk is exactly as dense as water, because that lets me say that 17,500 liters of milk = 17,500 kg of milk.

Now, I have to adjust for the relative amounts of food that a dwarf will eat in a year.

According to Teh Googles, according to the USDA, the average human eats 530 lbs of food per year, although I'm trying to find a better estimate of medieval peasant eating habits, which are much more lean than modern ones.  The best I can find is around 4 lbs of food per day, 3 lbs of which is bread or other vegetable, and 1 lb of which is either meat, eggs, or some kind of dairy, with cheese or eggs being far more common than actual meat.

4 lbs * 365 days in a year / 2.2 to convert to kilograms = 663 kg per year... which has to be wrong.

All the sites I'm looking at for modern people say roughly 200 kg of food in a year (not counting water, but I'm not talking about ale, either).  I doubt medieval peasants actually out-ate modern humans, so I'll just go with this.

200 kg / 8 meals a year for a dwarf, and you get 25 kgs per meal per dwarf, just to give a relative amount of food that a cow can produce.  This means that we need to translate each milking, which provides 1 food into 1/8th of a dwarf's annual diet, which is the equivalent of 25 kilos of food. 

If a cow produces a whopping 17,500 liters of milk annually, that is an astounding 700 milkings per year.

Some of these wikianswers sites tell me that cows can seriously produce 150 lbs of milk (68 kg) in a single day(WTF?!), so yeah, that's about 2.5 servings of cheese per cow per day... using modern cows.

I've gone back, and looked specifically for medieval cattle, and come across this page, which states that medieval cattle produced about 2.7-4.4 gallons per day, which is 3.9 kg per gallon, so I can estimate about 14 kg per day from medieval cattle.  That is 5110 kg per year, divided into 25 kg servings, is 204.4 servings per year. 

This means that the final number for a realistic cow milking period is roughly one milking every 1975 (or just make it 2000 for roundness) ticks.  I am not sure, however, what scale the milking number is based upon, so this is likely to require an actual milking number of 200, if this is indeed based on every 10 ticks/1 average turn.

KEEP IN MIND, however, that REAL cows have to eat, as well.  Cows in DF are 600 kg on average.  This means that if you are simply expecting them to graze, each cow will require roughly 1,000 kg of grass per day, or about 6 kg of hay (or other produced crops) plus about 50 kg of water per day. 

Incidentally, this means that if we continue to apply the same metric of 25 kg = 1 serving = what a dwarf eats eight times a year, then 6 kg per day translates into feeding a cow 1 unit of food every 4 days.  Meaning they eat roughly 11 times more often than a dwarf does.  (Or just eat 11 times as much food in one sitting.)  Of course, even WITH this, you are producing 204 servings of milk per year for 88 servings of feed (plus lots and lots of water).


Total sidenote:
Amusingly enough, the stuff I'm reading here says that the average peasant actually weighed about 120 lbs, or about 55 kg, as opposed to the 70 kg that DF assumes, with dwarves being a size that implies 60 kg, meaning dwarves are actually bigger than real medieval peasants.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2010, 09:40:20 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2010, 09:52:23 pm »

The average peasent was normlay smaller the todays average and most likely slightly underfeed.
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smariot

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #25 on: July 23, 2010, 10:20:15 pm »

Well *I* read somewhere that vikings gave milk to the Indians when they came to America. The Indians, who didn't drink milk and thus where lactose intolerant, thought they where poisoned and attacked. Dunno if it's true, but it's a pretty dwarfy story.

But yeah, all those barrels of blood that I don't know what to do with is kinda annoying.. :)

I'm completely in favor of dwarfs being lactose intolerant. I'll pretend they've been drinking ale for so many centuries that they've become dependent on micro-organisms to process complex sugars into something digestible for them. Although I suppose that means that eating +Sugar Roast+ on Goblin Christmas is going to result in a fortress full of some very gassy dwarves.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #26 on: July 23, 2010, 11:16:03 pm »

Actually, there is a more practical reason why most peasants would not drink milk, and instead ate cheese:

Before the Pasteurization process (which cooks milk to kill its latent bacteria) or refridgeration, milk would spoil within hours of being milked from the cow.  As such, only those who were on the farm could really drink it fresh, and even then, it tended to go to the young or old. 

Cheese was a way of preserving milk.  (The same can be said of many other fermentations of milk, although the softer cheeses still go bad faster, as does yogurt.)

Of course, in DF, that doesn't really exist, as milk can sit in pails for quite a while... 
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Pilsu

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2010, 02:56:13 am »

So how should this be reflected? Milk that spoils quickly and thus has to be processed quickly like hides? I suppose that'd work but it also means that making food out of plain milk would be difficult. More so if cooking is ever used to provide warm meals at set times. Milk being able to be processed into multiple separate things also complicates things.

The weight measurement of the game coincides with kilograms. Should the rest of the game be in metric? Certainly makes it easier considering what an ungodly mess barrel measurements in general are.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2010, 02:59:20 am by Pilsu »
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2010, 08:33:53 am »

So how should this be reflected? Milk that spoils quickly and thus has to be processed quickly like hides? I suppose that'd work but it also means that making food out of plain milk would be difficult. More so if cooking is ever used to provide warm meals at set times. Milk being able to be processed into multiple separate things also complicates things.

Making milk spoil quickly would be realisitic.  Only children or the very elderly, or the very poor with nothing else to consume would drink milk in the middle ages straight, although sometimes milk was used in stews for higher class families that could get the stuff delivered in a timely manner, so current milk use in DF is not terribly innacurate, except for the lack of spoilage.

Cheese production shouldn't be difficult, though, if you just have a milk-only (well, and bucket) stockpile right next to the farmer's workshop, so that you can milk a mammal, drop it off right next to your farmer's workshop, then set the same farmer to immediately turn it to cheese. 

If you want to put it into prepared food, although there's nothing wrong with just using the cheese, you could put the farmer's workshop directly next to (or even directly under) the kitchen, so that the kitchen will immediately take the milk from the farmer's workshop.  Likewise with a still, if we are making fermented milk booze in the still instead of at the farmer's workshop.

The weight measurement of the game coincides with kilograms. Should the rest of the game be in metric? Certainly makes it easier considering what an ungodly mess barrel measurements in general are.

The game already is in metric, at least, all materials have their own density (in kg/m3), and all objects have their own standard volume, such as all logs being 50 liters in volume, stones being 70 liters in volume, metal bars being 2 liters in volume, and all finished goods and furniture having set volumes, like barrels being 20 liters (plus contents), chairs and tables being 30 liters, etc.  By multiplying volume by density, the game derives the mass of all objects in the game.

Exploring the notion of simply declaring a hard size on the tiles, so that everything (but time) is measurable on a single set of metric measurements is explored in the Volume and Mass thread.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Fortress Dwarves: Drink Milk
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2010, 11:00:18 am »

maybe it could be done in such a way that a milking job would be generated every time milk was needed for anything, for example, if you ordered a dwarf to make cheese, he'd go and take it out of the cow directly.
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