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Author Topic: Rectification of timescale across modes  (Read 2258 times)

catsplosion

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Rectification of timescale across modes
« on: May 03, 2010, 11:03:49 pm »

I am proposing a switch away from constant simulationism in fortress mode, with the great bulk of time being passed in a less active state not entirely unlike a city simulation -- but which can, at any time, at the behest of the player or the world, shift back into simulationism.

World time advances 72 times as fast in fortress mode as in adventure mode, per tick.  We all recognize how strange it is that a caravan takes three months to go a distance an adventurer can take on foot in an hour, or that water takes weeks to flow into a new basin.  Brushfires, combat, travel, and hauling all suffer.  One booze roast will keep a dwarf chipper for a season.

There's a lot of abstraction at play, and that's a good thing.  But when it gets in the way of content that Toady wants to add, we have a problem.  This will keep caravans from being consistent: traders will travel at adventurer speeds until they come to that one magic fortress the player controls.  This will keep sieges from making sense: the vile horde of darkness burns its way across the world, only to crash up against the time dilation of one last fortress.  This will force all kinds of compromise into the upcoming adventurer skills: plant my crops, and now what?

Do away with the lie entirely.  Embrace the hierarchy of scales: simulationism (adventure mode) at the bottom, then daily life (fortress mode), then world-scale (caravans and armies), then worldgen itself; these can be united into a coherent whole, where certain circumstances at a higher mode of abstraction trigger lower modes of abstraction.  Sieges and the arrival of caravans are familiar instances of this, where the abstract world-scale arcs impinge upon the simulationist life of the fortress.

These subsystems can all run at all times and defer to each other when necessary.  Imagine if those battles in the legends all really happened.  "I am Othgul Morulgul, slayer of Pithic Ternisin, whose arm I severed with a steel battle axe and wielded as a hammer to drive his left floating rib into his lung."

So when the caravan comes, you get a message and time becomes real, or when that vile force of darkness arrives, or when a section of the cavern collapses.  And in principle, then, your adventurer and his cohort could shift into fortress mode at any time, to wait for crops to grow, or Toady could let you (the player) seize control of any dwarf in the fortress.

It's hard to write something like this, but it's harder to write what Toady's writing now.  There are plenty of advantages to be had from such a change, from a more consistent world, to less loading lag, to pathfinding improvements (dwarves don't need to be omniscient and can operate on habit and incomplete information even under full simulation -- many optimizations become possible), to more meaningful appointments as an arsenal dwarf actually interacts with other dwarves to get equipment where it belongs.  If you don't remember this from DF Talk 4, go to http://www.bay12games.com/media/df_talk_4_transcript.html and search for "The whole Dwarf Fortress time dilation is always going to be one of these big thorns in the side of the game."

What I'm curious about, then, is what gameplay changes you would expect from something like this, and whether you'd expect it to make the game more fun.
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Andeerz

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 11:53:34 pm »

I love this suggestion.  But, this is gonna be hard to do... which shouldn't really matter.  It would make the game more fun for me since the thought of the game being more coherent would make it more fun me.  Sort of circular, I know, but whatevs. 

The only problem I see right now with your suggestion is sieges.  If it went adventure mode time, that would make sieges 72 times as long.  Sieges last sometimes several seasons in the game, no?  I know in IRL they could last years...  If time could be switched back to fortress time during the siege, then would everyone move 72 times as fast until the siege is over?



« Last Edit: May 03, 2010, 11:59:53 pm by Andeerz »
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catsplosion

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 01:56:14 am »

To make fortress mode work at all, the game would be computing regions of availability; can this dwarf reach food, his job, his supplies, and his bed every day?  If not, what is he using instead?  Access by military forces to regions of the map will certainly be computed -- and used by the AI -- when the army arc is done.

If a siege is a long period of effective steady-state, punctuated by skirmishes that actually change what's going on, then it fits right into the model.  Once no one is actually gaining ground, modes can be shifted.  Sieges will be happening around the world all the time, after all, and the game only needs to identify the moment when something changes that equilibrium and at that moment switch you into ordinary time.

Since most of the slowdown presently has to do with pathing, it's likely that the framerate can be boosted by changes like these, to the extent that faster-than-real-time simulation can be offered; it also might not be distasteful to Toady to offer a 72x (or comparable) simulation speed that acts as a hybrid between the two.  It does seem unnecessary, though.  Most real action in this game is resolved fairly quickly and that probably won't change.
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lucusLoC

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 07:01:33 pm »

the problem with abstracting simulation from the real time comes when people learn to exploit it. outcomes can never be 100% consistent between the simulation and the abstraction of that simulation (otherwise you would just use the cpu saving abstraction every time). if a player discovers that x only happens in simulation they will be forced to go into simulation every time they want x to happen. this can break the flow of the game.

i can think of an admittedly contrived but very real break in continuity for something like pathing abstraction off the top of my head. say you have 2 burrows separated by a chained hostile dragon. with a pathing abstraction that just warps dorfs around based on where they can reach they travel between the burrows without incident. but as soon as we switch to real time it suddenly becomes very dangerous to path between the burrows. dorfs die until yo switch back into abstraction mode, where all is well again. something like this can easily be abused into some very interesting fort defenses, i'm sure.

i am not saying i don't like the idea, i do, but you do have to consider this problem, as it can be a game breaking hurdle.
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Pilsu

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 08:03:11 pm »

Couldn't we just make time pass faster in adventure mode? If an adventurer can walk across the world in an hour, I'd say that is the problem.
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nil

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 11:09:08 pm »

Or have them meet in the middle.  Divide fortress mode time by four, changing a year into a season, then speed up adventurer time to meet it.  It would take a lot of re-balancing, but I think it's feasible.

ShinWalks

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2010, 01:38:55 am »

I *love* this idea. Yes, this is the foundation for a full integration of all game modes into one game that allows seamless shifts between adventurer/fortress/worldgen in both directions. Bravo!
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Silverionmox

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2010, 10:23:39 am »

They even could be combined.
- Normal, unalerted civilians move at the normal pace (i.e. they do eg. 1 day-cycle in a calendar month, but their productivity is adjusted).
- Creatures engaged in military operations or similar move in real-time: from the perspective of the normal pace, extremely fast; if you're viewing the game in military pace, the unalerted civilians move extremely slow. Whenever civilians are scared, they are moving in military mode so they get a chance to run away.

This setup would solve the problem that it takes a month to equip soldiers and send them to the edge of the fortress map, among others.
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Andeerz

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2010, 05:53:58 pm »

Well, time to necro this thread.  I was thinking about this yesterday and it's still bothering me.

Or have them meet in the middle.  Divide fortress mode time by four, changing a year into a season, then speed up adventurer time to meet it.  It would take a lot of re-balancing, but I think it's feasible.

After thinking about it, I'm sorta for this.  But would multiplying the speed of adventure mode by 18 really be feasible?  Perhaps dividing fortress time by 8 and multiplying adventure mode time by 9 would be better???  I dunno... It would certainly make adventure mode, suffer, though. 

Perhaps there could be a slider to increase or decrease game speed, and just have dwarves and other things whizzing about super fast in fortress mode normally.  I mean, pausing is a normal occurrence in the game and people tend to ignore moving things until they are important (like battle).  Just a thought...  Of course, that would mean pathing calculations would have to be done way faster, which would make this virtually impossible as things are now.

EDIT:  Now that I think of it, simply increasing the speed of the dorfs in fortress mode and have a speed slider thing would probably be the best bet for addressing this problem.  Yeah, there would have to be changes made to time taken for probably every task a dwarf does, and it might require computing beyond what is practically available.  But I can't think of any other solution that would be better in my opinion.  Assuming computing and task-time-requirements are a non-issue, the only unnerving thing (at least unnerving to some, I think) would be the huge change in feel of the game, from seeing dwarves moving at observable speeds to zooming around like cat chunks in a blender (if set to maximum speed).
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 07:42:04 pm by Andeerz »
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King_of_the_weasels

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2010, 11:08:52 pm »

Honestly, if food was more abundant. I wouldn't mind a dwarf eating three times a day and making only one or two chairs then going to bed.  At an adventure mode speed of course, the current speed would be crazy.
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Waparius

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2010, 12:14:16 am »

Honestly, if food was more abundant. I wouldn't mind a dwarf eating three times a day and making only one or two chairs then going to bed.  At an adventure mode speed of course, the current speed would be crazy.

Maybe. Remember that farms are ridiculously fertile at the moment.
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Jake

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2010, 07:30:04 am »

Keeping the same growing period in days whilst increasing the food and sleep needs of your dwarves would probably take care of some of that, possibly increasing the yield slightly to balance it. Farming needs an overhaul anyway, really; complete self-sufficiency in food should be possible, but come at the expense of producing much else, at least during the growing season.
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rephikul

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2010, 08:02:43 am »

Due to the way turns work (1 days being very short) I think the intervals for sleep/eat/drink suffice in dwarf mode. So instead of decreasing the interval we can instead increase the amount of food/drink/sleep required each time. If eating/sleeping/drinking requirement match in-game time then they'd fall asleep as they do many activities, including eating. They'd also need to nap 2-3 times just to move to the map edge then back even on small embarks.
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harborpirate

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2010, 10:05:57 am »

Or have them meet in the middle.  Divide fortress mode time by four, changing a year into a season, then speed up adventurer time to meet it.  It would take a lot of re-balancing, but I think it's feasible.

There are certain problems with doing this though. Farming, which has been mentioned, is definitely one of them - it would have to be modified so that instead of four harvests during that time, there was only one. Dwarves would eat and drink only a handful of times in a season, but this would actually be considerable improvement what we have now, where they eat just a handful of times per year. However, this could cause at least one other issue: the amount of food available, especially in the early going, would be severely impacted by dwarves eating the same amount but harvesting four times as slow. Anything you currently derive from crops (booze, ropes, clothing, etc) would also be affected.

But perhaps a much larger issue: constructions in fortress mode already pop up almost instantaneously when compared to world gen. This would enlarge that problem. When I think of the kind of huge constructions that I can make in four fortress years, it could really be problematic for the game to have that happen in a year. Construction time would definitely have to be increased.

Not that it isn't doable - I think it probably is. It would just take a lot of tweaking.
The real trick would be, when you dial back the things you have to dial back to make this work, that the game doesn't end up being a bit boring in fortress mode.
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Jake

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Re: Rectification of timescale across modes
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2010, 05:16:18 pm »

The real trick would be, when you dial back the things you have to dial back to make this work, that the game doesn't end up being a bit boring in fortress mode.
That's one good reason to have some in-game control over time compression. I personally don't have an issue with issuing instructions and then either alt-tabbing away for five minutes or simply sitting back and letting my dorfs work, but other players might be less patient.
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Never used Dwarf Therapist, mods or tilesets in all the years I've been playing.
I think Toady's confusing interface better simulates the experience of a bunch of disorganised drunken dwarves running a fort.

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