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Author Topic: Dog mini-arc  (Read 1552 times)

Rotten

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Dog mini-arc
« on: May 03, 2010, 04:53:33 pm »

I think dogs are a little underloved in Dwarf Fortress. They're kind of just emotionless robotic constructs. So I think they could bear to be spiced up a bit.

- Breeding dogs: Not the current caste and descriptor system. Basically you could buy different types of dogs (small dog, large dog, long dog etc.) Dogs could also have different types of fur, so you could breed a bunch of small and furry dogs for cuteness or really big dogs to assign for war.

-Improved training: Newly born puppies would be (tame), but could not be adopted. They would have to be trained in a kennel (house trained [see house training], manners, etc.). they would then be (trained) and able to be put up for adoption.

- Personalities through training: Would be determined by the trainer who trains the dog (dogs would have to be trained before being adopted as pets). A trainer who is strict would cause the dog to be obedient, a trainer who has a happy outlook on life would train the dog as happy and loving all your dwarves. A trainer who hates animals would make the dog hate all dwarves and bite and snap at them (though not do more than bruise a limb).

- Personalities through owner: If a strict dwarf adopts a carefree dog, then he/she will slowly start to get it towards a median between carefree and obedient. A mean military dwarf who hates dogs who is assigned an incredibly loyal war dog will slowly start to alienate the dog until it is rebellious.

- Combined descriptors: This is XXXXXXXX, pet of YYYYYYYYY. He is very tiny. His brown fur is incredibly fluffy and soft and has small white patches. His large floppy ears perk up when he is curious. He is very carefree and loving.
This is XXXXXXXX, pet of YYYYYYYY. He is typically sized. His tan fur is coarse and has thin brown stripes. His small rounded ears don't move much. He is very nervous and snappy around dwarves, but is becoming more trusting.
This is XXXXXXXX, a guard dog assigned to a chain. She is incredibly large. Her solid black fur is coarse and thick. Her pointed ears flatten when she is angry. She is hostile towards strangers.

Different uses for animals: A small fluffy dog would improve the happiness of a dwarf who likes animals that adopts it (unless it is snappy due to a mean trainer, in which it then frustrates the dwarf until it is trained and friendly, when it then gives a large happiness boost). That dog would also have a high value when being traded as a pet (trading away a dwarf's pet would give a large happiness loss, but un-adopted dogs would be fine) A strong, agile dog would be good for training as a hunting dog. A large and muscular dog who is incredibly loyal would be a good war dog. A large dog who is distrustful of strangers would be a good guard dog.

Improve dog behavior: Carefree dogs should enjoy going outside with their owners, chase large vermin and small animals (like birds) around, etc. They would be bad at protecting their owners, however. Loyal dogs should bark at strangers going near their dwarf and follow their dwarves around religiously. If they're large, they would be OK in fights with enemies. Obedient dogs should always follow their owners around as well and only get in fights if their owner does first. Snappy dogs should stay away from dwarves and other humans/goblins/kobolds/elves, attack (for minor damage, like bruising) when cornered and scrounge small wildlife and refuse piles. Persistent, animal loving dwarves with animal training enabled would be the only dwarves to try and tame the dog.

Dog happiness: It would be nice if dogs had some sort of a simplified happiness meter. If it was really low (if they were hungry,  had to go to the bathroom [see house training], thirsty, owner gone for awhile), they would whine and/or bark, somewhat annoying other dwarves. Their owners would cheer them up when not doing a job by playing with them. When the dog is really happy and is carefree, it would improve the mood of it's owner and the dwarves woudl walk by it a bit.

Housetraining: Basically, a dog would have to go outside every now and then. This is fine normally, but during sieges/Fun outside, can be a problem. If the owner is busy for a very long time and can't take the dog out, or the dog can't go out for a while for some other reason, it would 'go' inside, not creating anything (until everybody agrees on feces, lets keep that stuff minimal) but lowering it's happiness a fair bit and the poor sap who has to clean that tile's happiness a bit too.

All the happiness/bathroom/etc. meters would be confined to pet dogs only, so the game won't slow down a ton from tracking the hapiness of 10,000 un-adopted food dogs or dogs about to be traded as pets. I don't think descriptors would take up too much memory. This should probably be an init option as well, for those who want simple animals.

Also, I'm thinking this could be applied to other animals too, like cats.
This is Cat XXXXX, pet of YYYYYYY. He is large for a cat and somewhat fat. His short furry orange fur has darker stripes going through it. His pointy ears are immobile. His long tail constantly bats around. He is very friendly and enjoys meeting strangers.
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3

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2010, 06:19:57 pm »

Quote from: Rotten
- Breeding dogs: Not the current caste and descriptor system. Basically you could buy different types of dogs (small dog, large dog, long dog etc.) Dogs could also have different types of fur, so you could breed a bunch of small and furry dogs for cuteness or really big dogs to assign for war.

Why is this necessary? I thought the entire point of the caste/descriptor system was that we could get inheritable traits and such. Why not just follow the system through to its natural conclusion, as is currently planned?

Quote from: Rotten
-Improved training: Newly born puppies would be (tame), but could not be adopted. They would have to be trained in a kennel (house trained [see house training], manners, etc.). they would then be (trained) and able to be put up for adoption.

This is a cultural issue. I don't think it would do to have housetraining and such as a necessary element of adoption, more something involved with individual (most likely procedurally generated) civ ethics.

Quote from: Rotten
- Personalities through training: Would be determined by the trainer who trains the dog (dogs would have to be trained before being adopted as pets). A trainer who is strict would cause the dog to be obedient, a trainer who has a happy outlook on life would train the dog as happy and loving all your dwarves. A trainer who hates animals would make the dog hate all dwarves and bite and snap at them

The animal's personality needs to be taken into account here, as well.

Quote from: Rotten
(though not do more than bruise a limb).

There's no reason why this should be so arbitary. To be honest, there's also no reason as to why any of this should apply to dogs and not just tameable animals in general (it wouldn't make much sense for your badly-trained grizzly bear to casually bruise every dwarf walking past).

Quote from: Rotten
Different uses for animals: A small fluffy dog would improve the happiness of a dwarf who likes animals that adopts it (unless it is snappy due to a mean trainer, in which it then frustrates the dwarf until it is trained and friendly, when it then gives a large happiness boost).

Arbitary results again. This should be due to the preferences of the civver adopting the animal.

Quote from: Rotten
That dog would also have a high value when being traded as a pet

And again. This should be affected by the preferences and needs of the civ that the animal is being traded to.

Quote from: Rotten
Housetraining: Basically, a dog would have to go outside every now and then. This is fine normally, but during sieges/Fun outside, can be a problem. If the owner is busy for a very long time and can't take the dog out, or the dog can't go out for a while for some other reason, it would 'go' inside, not creating anything (until everybody agrees on feces, lets keep that stuff minimal) but lowering it's happiness a fair bit and the poor sap who has to clean that tile's happiness a bit too.

Why outside specifically? What about cave animals? What about refuse areas/piles? Does this make the game any more entertaining in any way?
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Pilsu

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2010, 07:37:21 pm »

A violent, unpredictable dog is not the product of a quirky trainer, it's the product of an incompetent !@%$#%@. Now, while training quality and the like are certainly worth exploring, let's not confuse training styles as some kind of personality quirk of a trainer. While a mean trainer is more likely to use force rather than rewards, different temperaments of dogs would respond differently to different methods and results are what a good trainer goes for, not using the training as an excuse to vent by kicking puppies intended as lapdogs. The player shouldn't need 3 trainers with different personalities just to have access to different training results.


Animal feelings and the resulting behavior need to be tied to temperament and species. Not all dogs whine and bark just because they're left alone. Different breeds behave differently. Breed management should be automated, micromanaging the slaughter of aggressive golden retrievers would get old.
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Max White

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2010, 07:51:47 pm »

Hmm, we could sort of implement this with a little modding magic. I mean different sorts of dogs that act differently? Hell YES we can do that.We can also limit some dogs to being only pets, some to only hunting animals, some for only war and some for all of it. How they behave can be changes somewhat and implementing breeds would be simple.

The problem is breeding. With the current caste system, you could get any dog from any breeding pair, and that is sort of unrealistic.

But I'm sure toady has a plan for cross breeding/hybrids in general, so we can use that when the time comes.

Keuran

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2010, 08:06:17 pm »

Most of the description stuff can probably be modded in right now, and I think expanded training and genetics are planned already.

I think the topic should be renamed, because it seems a bit counterproductive to me to focus just on dogs, then throw in a footnote at the bottom of 'Oh, this should work for other animals too.'
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Max White

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2010, 08:07:55 pm »

Well I don't see how toady could make this work for dogs and nothing else, unless he hard coded the dogs, and even then we would break in like we did for demons and see what we can do.

Rowanas

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 10:53:49 am »

Indeed. All of this works for other animals but I'm not sure I want all of it. let's stick with genetics for now, eh?
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

therahedwig

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 05:07:04 pm »

I agree with the others that dogs wouldn't need to be pre-trained. If someone is halfway experienced and comfortable with dogs, basic dog-training is usually a matter of patience and hard work then it is of skill.

However, with other animals this is different. Horse handling actually does take a bit of skill, mostly because horses are very picky over to who they listen to. Cats have it hay-wired in their brain that their prey could be anywhere, so sometimes looking in the same place twice can lead to different results, which makes them hard to train. Cows can actually be pretty damn creepy, especially when you've ever seen them run, and the last time I saw a bull, I wanted to run the fuck away, even though there was a fence in between.

In fact, looking at this in general I think we should try to study animal behaviour a bit beyond the usual 'moves in packs' 'has litter' 'can speak' and propose behavioural tags for modding purposes.

I mean, it would be a bit weird to have pigs act exactly like dogs while IRL, they would probably destroy your smoothed walls and pillage your food stockpiles.
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Pilsu

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2010, 08:24:16 pm »

Cows can actually be pretty damn creepy, especially when you've ever seen them run, and the last time I saw a bull, I wanted to run the fuck away, even though there was a fence in between.

You were scared of that clumsy gait? It's not like the thing is going to step on you, it's pretty difficult to inspect something interesting by smashing into it face-first. Cows are nothing to be scared of, even if they're big.

Unless of course, they mooed at you. Those moos man, those haunting moos.

I mean, it would be a bit weird to have pigs act exactly like dogs while IRL, they would probably destroy your smoothed walls and pillage your food stockpiles.

Why would a pig destroy walls and pillage things? Sure, it's gonna be interested in the yummy-smelling barrels but it's not exactly built to rend things open in a show of force.
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Max White

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2010, 08:25:57 pm »

Why would a pig destroy walls and pillage things? Sure, it's gonna be interested in the yummy-smelling barrels but it's not exactly built to rend things open in a show of force.

What sort of lame pigs have you been hanging out with? Most of the pigs I know are packing heat!

Kilo24

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2010, 01:11:11 am »

Animal training/breeding revamps should be generalized into animals as a whole but adjusted by the animal's (genetically affected) personality/physical characteristics, so we could have war eagle breeds, pigeon fanciers, and/or herd-able cats in our fantasy world.

As far as the individual suggestions go, keep them automated.  Matching owners to ideal pet dogs, or micromanaging training a single dog several times during its life would be really annoying.  Owners should do most of it on their own, preferably on a break or somesuch.  When they're looking for a pet, they should be more likely to pick one that meshes with their personality.

Cleaning up dog crap doesn't quite seem to be a particularly great path for the game to go.

Pets changing personality in accord with their owner seems like it could be linked easily with personality changes through social interaction when the personality system gets revamped.

Extended description paragraphs would be good, especially when breeding kicks in as a semi-practical hobby for a dwarf/player to have (too little control for it now.)
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Vester

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2010, 01:17:19 am »

Why would a pig destroy walls and pillage things? Sure, it's gonna be interested in the yummy-smelling barrels but it's not exactly built to rend things open in a show of force.

What sort of lame pigs have you been hanging out with? Most of the pigs I know are packing heat!

Yes. Pigs are terrifying apex predators as long as there are no komodo dragons around.
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Rowanas

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2010, 02:36:07 am »

Why would a pig destroy walls and pillage things? Sure, it's gonna be interested in the yummy-smelling barrels but it's not exactly built to rend things open in a show of force.

What sort of lame pigs have you been hanging out with? Most of the pigs I know are packing heat!

Yes. Pigs are terrifying apex predators as long as there are no komodo dragons around.

Then you have never seen a pig and a komodo dragon go toe to toe...
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I agree with Urist. Steampunk is like Darth Vader winning Holland's Next Top Model. It would be awesome but not something I'd like in this game.
Unfortunately dying involves the amputation of the entire body from the dwarf.

therahedwig

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2010, 09:21:24 am »

Cows can actually be pretty damn creepy, especially when you've ever seen them run, and the last time I saw a bull, I wanted to run the fuck away, even though there was a fence in between.

You were scared of that clumsy gait? It's not like the thing is going to step on you, it's pretty difficult to inspect something interesting by smashing into it face-first. Cows are nothing to be scared of, even if they're big.

Unless of course, they mooed at you. Those moos man, those haunting moos.
Well, I have to admit, that the bull was running towards me loudly mooing and generally being territorial.
Also, the cows I was thinking of weren't the domestic kind, but rather the more wild kind that they employ to keep natural grassy areas grassy and not foresty. They're generally the type of creature you want to stay away from when you're walking your dog.
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I mean, it would be a bit weird to have pigs act exactly like dogs while IRL, they would probably destroy your smoothed walls and pillage your food stockpiles.

Why would a pig destroy walls and pillage things? Sure, it's gonna be interested in the yummy-smelling barrels but it's not exactly built to rend things open in a show of force.
Pigs are diggers, they like to search for interesting funghi, so hence why they would go around messing your fortress up. Actually, you're right, they're more likely to mess up soil then the rock.  Also, I think you should remember that the modern day pig is pretty much bred to it's current state, I think medieval pigs would be a bit different.
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Vester

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Re: Dog mini-arc
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2010, 08:30:59 pm »

Why would a pig destroy walls and pillage things? Sure, it's gonna be interested in the yummy-smelling barrels but it's not exactly built to rend things open in a show of force.

What sort of lame pigs have you been hanging out with? Most of the pigs I know are packing heat!

Yes. Pigs are terrifying apex predators as long as there are no komodo dragons around.

Then you have never seen a pig and a komodo dragon go toe to toe...

I don't plan to. Some of the pigs here eat monitor lizards, I wouldn't like to see what would happen if they met its larger, angrier, venomous cousin.
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"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."