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Author Topic: Echoes of Imperium (4X Strategy Game)[Not Dead]  (Read 36472 times)

Servant Corps

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2010, 02:22:39 pm »

You know, you might want to have an actual enemy that would allow for the Republic to still exist. EoFS had those Symboits and the Republic of Rome game had the plebs and barabarians. There doesn't really seem to be any reason why the Terran Republic would actually be united in the first place if there wasn't an enemy that forced the people to work together.

If you are to have netural senators, have the 'netrual' senators be in 'netural voting blocs', which you can influence through a variety of ways: You could bribe them, that's the easiest but most expensive method. Or, you could try to implement some government policies that they prefer: I was thinking more like Presidental Machine where you can gain votes by changing your political position to appeal to the most people. Or how about giving the netural senators some land?
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2010, 04:12:19 pm »

Il Palazzo:

I fear to admit I TL;DR'd your political outline, but I've very limited net access at the moment. Can I safely say that neutral Senators would be behaving/influenced a lot like, well, neutral Senators in that other much-beloved Holistic Studios game, Merchant Prince?
Yeah, I wrote it in this wall'o'text way so that Lap could have an easier time assesing if coding this in is feasible.(or at least I think it helps him)

As shocking as it might seem, I never played Merchant Prince, so I wouldn't know.

@Servant Corps: Indeed, the alien menace would be most welcome, otherwise there is no real reason, lorewise, for the existence of the Republic the way it's proposed. I'm not sure if Lap is going to code some sort of AI which could handle them, though.

Also, I've got this idea of making neutral senators own some land and units at the start of the game, equal to what the players get. This way, it'd be easy(from the viewpoint of ruleset) to accomodate players quitting, or wanting to join. The player's lands and senator would turn neutral in the first case, the new player wanting to join would take over of the unaligned factions(senators) in the second.
It'd simply preffer that the neutral ones wouldn't just be some paper dolls in the senate, a player would be also able interact with them directly(i.e. attack their lands, assassinate).
(it's a small matter, but for the above reason it's also important that each senator would be personalized. I.e. he'd have an unique family name representing the faction, and some random first name to differentiate the killed ones from replacements.)


To create meaningful 'voting blocks' for them would require proper preparation of voting options, but it does seem like a good idea. The game would randomly assign starting senators to each block, and they'd vote accordingly.
The option to influence neutral senators to change blocks seems actually more natural than bribing them to become friendlier to a specific faction.
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mainiac

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2010, 08:16:09 pm »

It would be cool to see a system that allowed for players to lead armies for nothing else then the political prestige.  Scipio didn't sack Carthage to make himself king of Carthage, nor did Flamininus conquer Greece in his own name.  Gaius Julius did turn Gaul and Britain into his own personal estate, but by doing so he alienated the senate and sowed the seeds for a civil war.

Some mechanics in that direction might be:
-When you conquer territory, you alienate neutral senators and suffer a penalty to all attempts to influence them.
-When you conquer territory, you can give it to the republic instead, which appeases the neutral senators.
-If you conquer a lot, the neutral senators will introduce a motion demanding that you give up territory or be declared an enemy of the republic.  Of course this motion could fail if you have enough senators on your side.  If you cut a deal with the other players to avoid the vote, a Triumvirate situation will emerge where the neutral Senators won't vote in favor of anyone being an enemy of the republic.  If you have enough votes on your own through bribing senators, you alienate the remaining neutrals but get off scott free.
-The republic will assemble armies to conquer new territories in the name of the republic.  You can bid for leadership of these armies by committing troops of your own.  Additionally, your popularity will give you a bonus for leading these armies.  There could be an office that lets you influence these decisions a little.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #93 on: May 31, 2010, 05:06:28 am »

There was actually something similar suggested in that huge post of mine. It was assumed, that whenever a general is selected by the senate to lead an army, he is expected to conquer some territory for the state - just as it worked in the real-life Roman Repuplic. Otherwise there would be no real reason for giving the command in the first place(unless to defend from some threat).
I figured that it would be enough for the commander to simply be the default governor of the conquered lands and reap some substantial income from them. If one would be to include somethng like "war prestige", we'd need to start giving each senator individual stats, which would most likely make the whole senate too convoluted and hard to grasp on a glance.
Instead, having more cash gained thanks to conquering lands for the state(and it'd be always "for the state", unless done with house's own troops), would translate to having more influence, as influencing neutral senators(or blocks) costs a lot.
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Virex

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #94 on: May 31, 2010, 05:40:46 pm »

More thoughts on resource handling:
If we were to make it so that building stuff doesn't need the resources up front, but is instead planned and then done when the resources become available, we could simulate a source-sink system, in the following way:

When a construction is commissioned, it creates a certain amount of demand. Likewise, a source of resources creates a certain amount of supply. Demands propagate outwards using an iterative algorithm. This means that if a demand can't be satisfied in it's own system, it will propagate to all adjacent systems. Whenever a demand hits a supply, resources will be shipped from the source to the sink by transports. We'll assume that each resource unit comes with it's own transport, to keep things easy. When a player is ready to submit a turn, he'll get a list of all outgoing transports, to manually alter any escort settings. (I'll detail those later)
Sinks can be given a priority, which means that they'll propagate before lower priority sinks (for example, a priority 2 sink will be propagated before a priority 1 sink), so they get earlier bids on available resources. The amount of sink levels should of course be limited o avoid having too much overhead (though a multiplayer TBS with each turn taking for example a day doesn't have such a big problem with that. Perhaps fast servers would notice it though.)

Besides demand-generated sinks, players can set up depots. These will function as sinks with their own priority (typically low unless the player is planning something), but they will also act as sources for things with higher priority then them. This enables players to concentrate resources on central planets for later endeavors and pretty much removes the necessity for player controlled transports. Sinks can also be set to change their priority once a certain amount of resources has been reached.
As for escorts, several options can be set. Escorts can be made mandatory for any transports passing trough certain sectors, which means that no transport trough that sector will be generated unless ships are available in that sector, or a sector prior to it. Likewise, transports can be made mandatory for specific resources (like gems). Required escort ships can also be set in these cases. When a unit has completed an escort order, it will notify the player and return to it's original position, unless it is assigned to a different escort order though these settings can be overridden. As said, the player will be presented with a list of transport orders generated, which he can filter on sectors it passes trough, the transported resources, the origin, the destination, the escort and possibly some other things I can't think of right now. Perhaps there should also be more settings concerning escorts, to make it as little a hassle as possible (for example, one could think of options like "at least x% of iron transports trough this sector should be escorted)
Besides resources, sources and sinks also apply to units. Players can commission a certain amount of units in a certain location and any units set to "free transfer" will respond, which is true for all units the moment they are built until they reach their destination, after which it can be set manually or as a sector-wide command. This can be used to constantly supply certain sectors with new units and essentially act as an anonymised form of the "constructed units way-point" most strategy games know. Besides free transfer, special commissions can be set for escort units, which will cause a desired amount of units assigned to escort duty to go there (unless they're escorting something of course).. This should make providing escorts to all transports a lot easier.


What this system means is that planets close to resource hubs will be significantly better suited for resource-intensive projects then planets that are far away from hubs, but it's not impossible to do that. It hopefully reduces the amount of resource management associated with keeping resources real items that have to be transported, without abstracting them further. Players can still do things manually (or perhaps that could even be limited), but for the most part, things should manage themselves. By applying the same system to units, managing the transport of units to desired locations becomes easier as well.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #95 on: May 31, 2010, 05:54:07 pm »

@Virex  -problems with your system:
1.It's not immensely clear and easy to grasp for a player.
2.When a player commisions some units, and necessary resources are sent from some other planet, due in x turns, the original planet still produces it's own resources. Next turn, the unit awaiting in queue for transports to arrive could've been already commisioned with the newly available(localy) resources.

I'm much more inclined to the "immedialtely available across galaxy, through spaceports, unless blockaded" system, as long as it's paired with tiered(and expensive) factories.
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mainiac

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2010, 07:01:58 pm »

I feel that a dark ages science fiction setting is one of the few genre's where traditional resource stockpiles, like EFS, are appropriate.  In the manor economic system that prevailed during the dark ages, payment in kind was very common, as were informal trades (I'll give a load of lead from my estate, you give me cattle from yours.) and what market oriented trade did take place, was only possible when the lords in question consented.  So it's actually a decently close approximation to have stacks of resources or depots, etc, and the player deciding what gets sold and what get's stockpiled or shipped.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Lap

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #97 on: June 01, 2010, 03:51:48 am »

I took a break for a few days from coding and I'm glad to see such lively discussion on returning. My time is going to become a lot more constricted soon so I'm trying to focus as hard as I can on the immediate goals. Constantly skipping around coding unrelated mechanics is a very inefficient way to code. In an effort to waste as little time as possible I'm trying to refrain from point-by-point responses to everything, but the very core mechanics I'm focusing on. The sooner I get the absolute core elements up the faster I can release an early alpha to generate some buzz and test some basic mechanics.

I do appreciate all the ideas being tossed around and I do read all of them, however long they are, so don't take me not responding as an indication of anything. I have most of these posts bookmarked so that when I start implementing said topic I can go back and easily see all these ideas we've come up with. Right now I am working mostly on the resource system and trying to tie together all the separate module together to make an extremely basic 4X game to build on. This also means a lot of finishing the interface (which surprisingly has gotten very little mention at all after that last screenshot I posted).

Ideas for graphically representing estimated enemy army strengths as well as the level of "urbanization/amount of buildings" would be helpful, though I could use feedback on any portion of the interface besides color, which is not even implemented yet.

During my little coding hiatus I've also been able to acquire far more art assets than I thought possible. I have a lot of good music, sound effects, and various graphics. This still leaves the unit sprites as the primary need for this project, but that was to be expected.
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Lap

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #98 on: June 05, 2010, 05:12:18 pm »

Alright, next phase of things I'm working on is the unit/army organizer. I need to have ways for you to move units between armies and out again. I really don't know a lot of games that use this kind of system besides Dom so they are the only organizational example I have. Here's how they did it:



The units at the top are unassigned units just chilling in the province like bums. Each one of the bars below are for a specific leader or army. Below the leader you see any units they may be commanding. The downside to this system is that it always shows all the armies and units even if you don't want to see them. This makes it annoying to transfer units from one army on the top and then have to scroll down to transfer them to an off screen army.

I can do something similar to this and maybe make it so you can minimize armies you don't want to see or I can do something different. One of the ideas I came up with was simply using a different window per army. The benefit to this is that the user could resize or move the windows and only see what he wants to see. The downside is that even though I can make the windows open in a nice box together the movement of windows can make the screen look messy.

Here's a quick mock up of the two ideas. The second idea would probably have some sort of buttons like I drew in the top left so you could open individual armies at your leisure.



Thoughts? Alternatives?

I also haven't heard anything better than Warring Suns for the title yet. I like it, but it has the downside of being confused with "Titans of Steel:Warring Suns".
Some other slightly less cool titles:

-Warring Worlds
-Rival Suns
-Opposing Suns
-Vying Suns
-Clashing Suns
-Volatile Suns

There's also a set of names that seem to focus more on the tense system of government the players all share. Something that gives the same feeling as the name "Fragile Allegiance" (which is a great game by the way). I haven't heard many good ones for this focus, though there is a lot more potential word combos here I think.

-Fragile Alliance (seems a bit overused).
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 08:38:09 pm by Lap »
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zchris13

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #99 on: June 05, 2010, 09:23:04 pm »

Trials of Deception

Bureaucracy 2: Some Dude Ranting?
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #100 on: June 06, 2010, 07:13:34 am »

Truth be told, when it comes to inventing the name of a game, it's good to know what the whole thing is going to be focused on, what elements will and what won't make it into the final product etc.

Still, here's some generic propositions:
-Worlds in Turmoil(if focused on an all-out war between players)
-Across the Void(if there'll be a lot of exploration/conquests)
-The Farthest Reaches(same)
-Mankind's Finest Hour(if it'll be about fighting off some very aggressive aliens)
-Decaying Loyalties(if focused on diplomacy with optional endgame war)
-Primus inter pares(if manipulating the Senate is the main focus)



Regarding the army transfer screens:
Personally I disliked the Dom3's transfer screen, but seeing how there were a gazillion of troops and commanders, it was understandably necessary.
As long as there isn't going to be a similarly huge number of troops per army in this game, I'd suggest ditching the "left" option, the one with sliders - not very easy to assess all armies' strengths at a glance, and sliders are generally less user friendly than clickable icons - as in the screen on the right.

Generally, I think it'd be best to have all armies present visible at all times, together with some brief summary of their strengths(and if it can be crammed in there, also composition). E.g., each small ArmyX box would have a few numbers at the bottom, like 7I(nfantry-troops), 2A(rmour), 1P(lanes).
The exact technological types and possibly damage state of each of those troops would be only visible after highlighting a specific army box.
So, at the top half of the screen, as in your mockup, there would be a bunch of generalised representations of all armies present, including the non-assigned to army troops(provincial troops). The player would highlight two of these(LMB and RMB would make it easy to switch between armies displayed on the left and right of the transfer bit).



Here's another idea regarding the general concept of non-battlefield part of the game:

Spoiler: background (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: exploration system (click to show/hide)
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Lap

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Re: Dominions + Dune (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #101 on: June 06, 2010, 10:09:33 pm »

I just had written a post that took me well over an hour to write and on hitting preview it logged me out and wiped the response!

FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It'll have to wait until tomorrow.

Too bad, I had some ideas for major change in there that I was pretty excited about. Hopefully, it'll be a much faster write the second time.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 10:27:12 pm by Lap »
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Lap

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #102 on: June 10, 2010, 07:04:49 am »

I finally got the will to rewrite the megapost I lost. Here it is in all it's glory. I'll first respond to the title suggestions and then respond to the fantastic new ideas and introduce some new stuff.

Title Suggestions

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That Asimov background makes me realize just how many games have ripped off it, not like I'm going to let me exclude the possibility. In fact, it gives me a rather exciting idea for a big change to this game.

A Shared Homeworld
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Revised Background Idea
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Predetermined Planets vs Player Selected Planets
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Predetermined Wormholes
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Wormhole Voting Methods
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Miscellaneous Starting Quirks
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 07:13:59 am by Lap »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #103 on: June 10, 2010, 12:02:26 pm »

Yeah, not starting on Earth would have the advantage of not having to fit starting provinces to it's geography. As far as I'm concerned, we could get rid of Earth from the Galaxy altogether.

It is indeed problematic how to prevent players from starting a bloodbath on the home world right off the bat. Both  strong static defences and EOFS-Byzantium-like ban on fighting seem very artificial, but in the end we might just have to accept one of them.

I don't get the idea of player-selected-planets. Am I right to assume that you want to make the galactic map a complete abstraction? As in, we decide to make a wormhole, and it doesn't really mean where lies the destination, as it's assumed that some star is indeed nearby. Then the players choose the type of planet freely, as it's also assumed that there is a selection of planets available.

If so, then I must admit that I'd much rather have a galaxy map that actually shows the relative distances and positions between star systems, in other words, your "predetermined planets" galaxy.

I agree that players should know what type of worlds are orbiting the destination star, as you said, some probes' surveys or records from the past(when the whole mankind still tried to stay in touch with each other) should be available. Maybe the players begin on some old capitol-world, or archives-world or something.

So, technically, all the destination points in the galaxy would be known from the start, including their planetary types. What wouldn't be known, is how well did the colonists on those worlds fare. So, while you could choose to build a wormhole to a "paradise world", you wouldn't be able to know if there are barbarians or high-tech civilization on it.

Or, the game could use some combination of "known worlds" and "forgotten worlds" - of which there is no information available. Maybe some of that knowledge(survey data) could be found on newly conquered planets?

However, I'd rather keep only the planets predetermined.
I'd imagined that the connection could be created from any star system to any other, without hard limits, other than expensiveness - the game should be able to measure the relative distance between any two stars, and put a price tag on creating a connection - the farther apart the two ends of a wormhole, the more(exponentially maybe?) expensive it's construction.
If creating a new connection is going to be really expensive, then we should be able to naturally prevent cluttering of galaxy map with redundant connections.

Right, and the Voting options: I'd say option 2 is better. The more reasons for player interaction, the more fun.
If there are going to be some sort of neutral senators in game, then those guys could try and vote for some close-by world, or some world that'd fit their "wanted" target. They'd be the reactionary force in the senate, wanting to reconnect all the worlds into a single galactic empire, while the players would most likely chase their own goals(i.e.riches and power).
Or even if there aren't any neutral voting forces in the senate, the galaxy would probably evolve a healthy web of wormhole connections over time, as players would want to have additional/shorter/bypassing other players/other reasons, ways of going from a world to world.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 12:52:14 pm by Il Palazzo »
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mainiac

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Re: Dominions+Dune+EFS (An open source multiplayer strategy game)
« Reply #104 on: June 10, 2010, 05:03:07 pm »

I like the idea of having the worlds be known then having votes to (re)open up wormholes.

An interesting wrinkle on this idea would be to have it so that travel is possible without wormholes, but is more expensive to travel this way.  It could also provide a source of piracy related activities, if a ship travels to a planet without a wormhole or another player's presence, it can go incognito and start pirating.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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