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[Dante]

@Shiv:
No, you're kind of missing the point. The problem is that when a cave-in occurs, all construction or rock tiles fall as far as they possibly can, instantly.
So ceilings instantly become part of the floor, leaving a hole for the water/magma to pour in.

Similarly, if you try to generate a cap during the cavein process, it seems to just fall down an destroy everything, unless you get things just right.

To that effect, I've just had some partial success dropping things into magma:

Z-level 1.


Z-level 2.


Z-level 3.


Z-level 4.


(Obsidian continues for a while upward, then Z-level 10, showing the cost).


[That was basically a huge wide 3-z-levels of water, surrounded by 2-deep obsidian walls, dropped from two z-levels above the magma surface.]

[opsneakie]

How did you manage to get a gap in there? If i read your screenshots correctly, it looks like you're almost there in terms of what we need, with floors on top and bottom of an open space. If we can get it to seal up around the edges we win. Probably. Aside from the drowning/incinerated dwarves issue.

EDIT: Re-reading your post, does it just seem to be random noise that made that gap, or do you think it's something we could calculate and predict?

[Dante]

It's hard to be sure. I do know that in the single frame in which it all collapsed, it looked very roughly like this (side view):

Code: [Select]

####WWW####
###########
MMMMMMMMMMM
MMMMMMMMMMM
MMOOMMMOOMM
MMOOWWWOOMM
MMOOWWWOOMM
MMOOWWWOOMM
MMOOOOOOOMM
MMOOOOOOOMM
RRRRRRRRRRR

i.e. some of the water fell with the obsidian, as I'd hoped, leaving the rest of it sticking up in the air.
As far as I can make out, this meant an obsidian cap formed as we wanted, and then the rest of the water fell on top, making many more layers of obsidian.

BUT. There are about four more layers of obsidian than there were of water to begin with (? ? ?). AND. I have no idea why that crack is in the bottom bubble, letting the magma in.

[Dante]

(My test fort is in the middle of a tantrum spiral because I conscripted half my population and put them in the cube, and they started dehydrating. That means it's really, really hard to actually remove the scaffolding and get it to collapse before I run out of able-bodied dwarves)

[Dave Mongoose]

This is how I've worked out it goes:
a. In a single frame, all natural (cast obsidian) walls fall as far as they are able.
b. They end up at the bottom of the x-liquid pool, full of x-liquid from the pool. The x-liquid they displace is placed above the surface. The x-liquid they held has not yet fallen.
...
e. At this point, your dwarven testers are instacrushed [presumably by constructions, since they weren't under any real walls) or, if you're lucky, still up in the air just beneath/in the magma/water. They will never be at the bottom of the pool.
...
h. Any of these obsidian walls which fall into the pool travel right to the bottom. They would not form a ceiling.

So a natural ceiling that is caving-in will teleport past dwarves who are in the way?

This is an interesting discovery... not sure if it would ever be useful though (considering they all died anyway).

[Keldor]

Hmm... Since falling creatures aren't effected by lava, perhaps you could drop the dwarves first, then, with a bit of timing, construct the submarine around them...

Or you could kinda cheat and make an obsidian tube for them to get into the sub ' something like:

Code: [Select]

▓╢X╟▓
 ▓╢X╟▓
 ▓╢X╟▓
 ▓╢X╟▓
_▓╢X╟▓_
▓ ║X║ ▓
▓ I I ▓
[/font]

The idea is that you'd then somehow remove the obsidian sheath, leaving only the constructed access shaft, which could then be collapsed, leaving the (thick roofed) submarine safely beneath the sea...

[denito]

EDIT: Re-reading your post, does it just seem to be random noise that made that gap, or do you think it's something we could calculate and predict?

As a programmer, my intuition tells me that gap probably resulted from the experiment crossing a boundary between two world tiles.

[BEvilR]

Hmm... Since falling creatures aren't effected by lava, perhaps you could drop the dwarves first, then, with a bit of timing, construct the submarine around them...

Or you could kinda cheat and make an obsidian tube for them to get into the sub ' something like:

Code: [Select]

▓╢X╟▓
 ▓╢X╟▓
 ▓╢X╟▓
 ▓╢X╟▓
_▓╢X╟▓_
▓ ║X║ ▓
▓ I I ▓
[/font]

The idea is that you'd then somehow remove the obsidian sheath, leaving only the constructed access shaft, which could then be collapsed, leaving the (thick roofed) submarine safely beneath the sea...

this might work with the discovery that the falling natural walls telleport to the bottom. Drop the dwarves from a tower, and then, right before they hit the liquid drop the construction through them. You'd have to use the U shape idea i was in favor of early, but basically you drop the dwarves, and right before they hit the surface, drop the construction, they appear inside the U tube, and then after it's settled seal the top with magma. I think a way to solve the mining issue is to drop a U with a graduated bottom like so:


D is Dwarf, W is water
▓     ▓
▓     ▓
▓WWDWW▓
▓▓WWW▓▓
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓

[Keldor]

Does cavein dust knock out supports?  If so, you could use the same lever that drops the dwarves to start a chain reaction of caveins lasting just long enough to delay the collapsing of the submarine block until the dwarves have fallen the right amount.  Dwarven dominoes!

[Pheo]

this might work with the discovery that the falling natural walls telleport to the bottom. Drop the dwarves from a tower, and then, right before they hit the liquid drop the construction through them. You'd have to use the U shape idea i was in favor of early, but basically you drop the dwarves, and right before they hit the surface, drop the construction, they appear inside the U tube, and then after it's settled seal the top with magma. I think a way to solve the mining issue is to drop a U with a graduated bottom like so:


D is Dwarf, W is water
▓     ▓
▓     ▓
▓WWDWW▓
▓▓WWW▓▓
▓▓▓▓▓▓▓

Brilliant idea, and very dwarfy. But The construction will not be able to have a roof, and you cant form one as the water/magma you drop with it stays at the surface.

Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.

I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. 

[Retro]

Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.

I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. 

If I recall there was debate a while ago about falling damage based on height - we all know it exists, but one guy had been dropping tons and tons of goblins at a time and had seen quite a few simply walk away perfectly fine and thought it was random, which likely meant some just managed to luckily fall on others before they died. Evidently with dropping a metric elfton of dwarves at once there'll be a good chance that at least a few survive, though it'll be randomized. And the survivor(s) will have to follow their mission parameters while wading through corpses, limbs, guts, and gibs of their comrades. But hey, glass-half-empty/glass-half-full am I right?

[Oglokoog]

Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.

I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. 

If I recall there was debate a while ago about falling damage based on height - we all know it exists, but one guy had been dropping tons and tons of goblins at a time and had seen quite a few simply walk away perfectly fine and thought it was random, which likely meant some just managed to luckily fall on others before they died. Evidently with dropping a metric elfton of dwarves at once there'll be a good chance that at least a few survive, though it'll be randomized. And the survivor(s) will have to follow their mission parameters while wading through corpses, limbs, guts, and gibs of their comrades. But hey, glass-half-empty/glass-half-full am I right?

It is the dwarfy way.

[Ilmoran]

Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.

I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. 

If I recall there was debate a while ago about falling damage based on height - we all know it exists, but one guy had been dropping tons and tons of goblins at a time and had seen quite a few simply walk away perfectly fine and thought it was random, which likely meant some just managed to luckily fall on others before they died. Evidently with dropping a metric elfton of dwarves at once there'll be a good chance that at least a few survive, though it'll be randomized. And the survivor(s) will have to follow their mission parameters while wading through corpses, limbs, guts, and gibs of their comrades. But hey, glass-half-empty/glass-half-full am I right?

In the words of Boatmurdered:
"Hope you like Miasma!"

[Dante]

So a natural ceiling that is caving-in will teleport past dwarves who are in the way?

No, I don't think so. It'll kill them, and their corpses may or may not stay up in the air. Natural walls that cave in seem to sometimes kill dwarves touching them too, for some reason.

As a programmer, my intuition tells me that gap probably resulted from the experiment crossing a boundary between two world tiles.

I... can't tell if you're joking or not.

this might work with the discovery that the falling natural walls telleport to the bottom.

I'm pretty sure that even though they insta-drop, they still insta-crush anything in the layers in between.
Somewhat sure.
Worth a try, I guess.

falling damage based on height

The first problem to overcome is insta-crushing. Right now we can't even drop a bronze colossus a few storeys safely, if we're trying to make a roof.

[Grumman]

Also, whoever suggested dropping dwarves on animals...
Replacing water with animals would work in theory, but the animals are also falling (to their death) in many of these plans.

I'm not sure that dead cats will save a dwarf. 

Could you use enemies for this purpose? Either drop undead or wave upon wave of goblins, then drop some legendary military dwarf to clean up the mess and prepare a proper drop-zone for the civilians?