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[Cardinal]

Edit: my magma/water testing infrastructure is almost done. I've got ten z-levels of magma and water, and I'm building the casting apparatus. Once it's ready I'll try to upload the save so that other people can muck around with it.

Awesome.  It's not in a freezing climate, by chance, is it?

[Dante]

No, it's not freezing. The magma pipe is a volcano, so you wouldn't be able to collapse natural floors into it anyway.

I tried Pheo's falling magma idea, but it didn't work. Looks like all the cave-in stuff happens in just a frame or two, and then the magma falls. The displaced water goes - somewhere - maybe straight up - and the magma falls into it, causing a second series of caveins that sort of splatter all over the place.

Extremely poorly-made movie of it here, I thought I'd got rid of most of the scaffolding but there were heaps of bits left over that had evaded me, so it took a while. Scroll through to the end and you can see the end result, though.

I save-scummed, so I might try interspersing multiple layers of water and magma above the main capsule.

[jokermatt999]

Don't forget that dwarves falling onto a creature don't get hurt. If you can drop your sub by lever, try making a version with like

Dwarf, standing on a hatch that will disappear when the lever is pulled
Cat, about get squished

Also, the idea with using constructed walls collapsing to make enough space so that water wouldn't drown the dwarves is brilliant. With enough space, you could get it to evaporating levels, and have muddied spaces for the dwarves to farm on. Let's see, what's *necessary for a dwarf to survive indefinitely?

1 square for farming
1 square for a food stock pile
3x3 space for workshops (still, kitchen)

Annnd that's it really. If you want it nice, you probably make a decent sized sub as long as you can definitely make a non-collapsing roof. Although, I suppose you only need one free space and a pick (the rest as walls, natural or constructed, since they could mine their other rooms. Because really, if we're going to confine dwarves to a life of solitude at the bottom of a volcano, it might as well be luxurious.

Also, beware of the possibility of volcano base dwelling dwarves becoming supervillians. It just seems like the perfect set up for one.

[uber pye]

hmm my dwarves dreams of living under da sea could be made a reality? 

[opsneakie]

Hey Dante, could we get that save by any chance, so we could do some other tests with it? I have a few ideas of my own that might be interesting.

[Dante]

Ok, done.

I'm really meant to be working on a ray tracer for my final CG assignment, so I may not get to finish the adaptable casting infrastructure for a while.

Note: I was using this in vanilla 40d, but with my dwarves sped up a bit to make testing easier, and also with [NOBREATHE], so that my intermediate testers (currently submerged) don't drown.

[Dante]

Sorry for the doublepost, but I tried the collapse again, and looked more carefully this time.

This is how I've worked out it goes:
a. In a single frame, all natural (cast obsidian) walls fall as far as they are able.
b. They end up at the bottom of the x-liquid pool, full of x-liquid from the pool. The x-liquid they displace is placed above the surface. The x-liquid they held has not yet fallen.
c. At the same time, in that single cave-in frame, any constructed walls/floors deconstruct, and any dwarves around them are crushed.
d. This means that any layers of water or magma are left hanging up in the air where they originally were (unless they manage to fall a single z-level in that frame, but it doesn't look like it).
e. At this point, your dwarven testers are instacrushed [presumably by constructions, since they weren't under any real walls) or, if you're lucky, still up in the air just beneath/in the magma/water. They will never be at the bottom of the pool.
f. In following frames, the magma and/or water falls, creating chunks of obsidian which again collapse.
g. At the same time, the displaced liquid from the testing pool falls back down, again possibly creating chunks of obsidian.
h. Any of these obsidian walls which fall into the pool travel right to the bottom. They would not form a ceiling.

I hate to say it, but the situation looks a little hopeless. I'll check if these effects hold for magma too, but if they do, I can't see any way through.

[opsneakie]

This may seem like a stupid question, but what about natural floors? i.e. if we mined out the ceiling layer to create an obsidian floor ceiling? I predict it would collapse and kill the dwarfies, but just wondering if anyone's tried it recently.

[Fluff]

Oh, guys, RE: the whole drowning. We make the pod two layers thick.

OOWWOO
OOWWOO
OOWWOO
OOOOOO

I can't verify this, but I've heard certain things, such as floodgates, can atom smash water. (If this isn't true, then disregard this I <3 elves)

So:
OO WWOO
OF WWFO
OF WWFO
OOOOOOO

With the floodgates being linked to a lever at ground zero.

Key: O = Obsidian (Or prehaps Gypsum)
       W= Water b/w Dwarf
       F= Floodgates.

Even if they don't water-atomsmash, there's a voice in my head that says floodgates could help us out some how. But wait, wouldn't the obsidian above the flood gate just collapse?

If so, we might need:

O          O
OWWWWO
OF.WWF.O
OF.WWF.O
OOOOOOO

Full stops just there to try and line things up a bit better. I think it should work. Unless it doesn't of course.

[Dante]

The problem is, the floodgates deconstruct as soon as the cavein is triggered.

[Fluff]

The problem is, the floodgates deconstruct as soon as the cavein is triggered.

Sunava!

In that case... Hrm... No, I got nothing.

[Shiv]

What's the problem?  Is it that you can't seal the hatch closed due to not being able to use a construction?


And yah I didn't read the whole 8 pages but that seems to be the gist of it, yes?  Saving the drowning dwarves being the secondary goal?

[Dante]

Yeah, there doesn't seem to be any way to get a ceiling down intact.

[Shiv]

Can't just create a ceiling?  This is kind of similar to the previous posted idea, but you'd do it prior to dropping instead.




Side view.  Red magma, blue water, grey flood gates, black obsidian casting, and yellow is a floor.  You'd open the flood gates, they'd flow to where the yellow is filling the hole, they'd form and make obsidian, thus sealing the capsule.  Alternatively you could have the water/magma resting on the yellow and just drop the magma/water onto the tile from above.

Only issue is that the floor would deconstruct when dropped, but that wouldn't really matter at that point would it?


And just a disclaimer I'm by no means an expert on what happens to Y when X collapses, how to form obsidian (what ratios are needed), or so forth, but I assume everything can be adjusted before hand to the necessary levels by regulating flow, so I'll leave that to the more informed amongst us on these kinds of things. 

[Oglokoog]

Can't just create a ceiling?  This is kind of similar to the previous posted idea, but you'd do it prior to dropping instead.




Side view.  Red magma, blue water, grey flood gates, black obsidian casting, and yellow is a floor.  You'd open the flood gates, they'd flow to where the yellow is filling the hole, they'd form and make obsidian, thus sealing the capsule.  Alternatively you could have the water/magma resting on the yellow and just drop the magma/water onto the tile from above.

Only issue is that the floor would deconstruct when dropped, but that wouldn't really matter at that point would it?


And just a disclaimer I'm by no means an expert on what happens to Y when X collapses, how to form obsidian (what ratios are needed), or so forth, but I assume everything can be adjusted before hand to the necessary levels by regulating flow, so I'll leave that to the more informed amongst us on these kinds of things.

Read my posts (and some others). Natural walls, when caving in, don't stay attached to walls to the side of themselves. They can only be "supported" by walls directly below them, meaning that any wall that has free space below it gets disattached from its neighboring walls and falls down until it no longer can, squashing any living beings below it in the process.