Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Pretentious

2 (14.3%)

Foolhardy

4 (28.6%)

Ingenious

3 (21.4%)

Other (explain in debate)

5 (35.7%)

Total Members Voted: 14

[Char13magne]

So, hi guys, sorry about the repulsively large number of new topics I have started in the space of three days, but I just wanted to try something closer to home, since my last three topics weren't all that popular (I'm really sorry if I'm infringing on some unspoken rule by doing this, if I am, someone please alert me immediately and explain a reccomended next point of action).

So, my topic for discussion is, were the actions undertaken by Israeli forces in 2008 under operation "Cast Lead" Pretentious, Foolhardy, or Ingenious? And please explain your opinions on the matter as I am trying to give pretext for healthy debate here (so no derailing of the topic ). (There is some method to my opening of this particular debate topic, as I am both Jewish, and have attended multiple MUN (Model United Nations) conferences involving topics very similiar to this, and possible resolutions to conflict in the Middle East (which would also be fine to discuss in addition to the main topic). Enjoy! )

                   Cheers!

[Pathos]

Not got a clue what operation "Cast Lead" is.

But, I do think Israel deserves the land they're sitting on, to be perfectly honest. They've as much right to it as the Palestinians do ( although what they're doing to the Palestinians is disgusting and really should be stopped ), if not more - due to sheer force of arms.

[Char13magne]

Not got a clue what operation "Cast Lead" is.

But, I do think Israel deserves the land they're sitting on, to be perfectly honest. They've as much right to it as the Palestinians do ( although what they're doing to the Palestinians is disgusting and really should be stopped ), if not more - due to sheer force of arms.

Here is some very brief, and only slightly crappy info on operation "Cast Lead" (also referred to as "The Gaza War")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

and more;

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/operation-cast-lead.htm

and more;

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Peace/castleadtoc.html

Please tell me if this wasn't helpful, if so I'll give you a brief overview (and sorry in advance for the bruntness). And as for your statements about Israel deserving its land, while I like to think of myself as a proud Zionist (I think the whole UN's "Zionism is racism" thing was complete Bulls***), I do not in any way condone Israeli settlement building, nor the way they have reacted to terrorism coming from small groups of Hamas inside of Palestinian refugee camps (though the way they handled Jordan was picture perfect! ), which I think is what you were going for with that statement anyway, so, yay! (I would also like to congratulate Fatah for their sterling efforts to keep the East side docile and out of the fray during Cast Lead, as you will read about in my pre-made research should you so choose.)

P.S. (Oh, and who voted ingenious/other/foolhardy without explaining why? *argh* *rage*!)

[Grakelin]

Working your way up the ladder of controversial subjects, I see.

[Char13magne]

Working your way up the ladder of controversial subjects, I see.

And dontchoo know it foo!
Plus, they're the very best for discussion topics! (In my opinion anyways!)

[Aqizzar]

Working your way up the ladder of controversial subjects, I see.

And dontchoo know it foo!
Plus, they're the very best for discussion topics! (In my opinion anyways!)

Yeah, well your opinion is wrong, and I for one suggest you stop this.  At least this thread anyway.  Just a few weeks ago, there was half-dozen man brawl across four threads over several different imaginary histories of Palestine.  The managed to shut up eventually, but the slightest mention of Israel will set them off like football hooligans and it'll be administration city all over again.  "Controversial" does not equal "good conversation", at least by any definition most people care about.

[Il Palazzo]

Aye, jut check out how controversial the "let's discuss Avatar" turned out to be, after Jude and (who was it?) started talking about Israeli-Palestinian conflicts.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=51093.495
Starts at page 34, I believe, ten pages later gets locked.

[Char13magne]

Yeah, but in that one, it wasn't the topic, so what they were doing was wrong, because they were derailing the poor guy's topic. In this case it is the topic, and we can control ourselves, right guys? If you don't want to join in the debate, or don't like what you're seeing, just son't look! Am I right? Really the only reason I can see that threetoes had to put a stop to it was because nothing was getting done because it was off topic. If this whole discussion topic is on it, then they can talk, hopefully like gentlemen, show their opposite sides, and no-one will be the worst for wear. If it really gets that bad (and I'll know, because you're right, that was pretty bad!) then, sure, I'll shut it off myself. Okay?
 

[Grakelin]

There are two camps here.

Either Palestine is a country.

Or Palestine is not a country.

Choose which path you prefer and then wordlessly lock the thread while you still can!

I get enough of this in my university's newspaper.

[Jackrabbit]

Palestine might be a country.

[Char13magne]

Palestine might be a country.

It's generally agreed that it is (ever since the PLO), Israel just doesn't want it to be, because it sees its existence as a threat to its national security (which in many ways, it often is).

[Jackrabbit]

No, see, I was giving you the most neutral and nonaggressive answer you're going to get in this thread.

And even then, that statement would have sparked a fight if this thread was really moving.

[Zangi]

Eh, I prefer that Israel be put in its place.  Which is as simple as stop throwing economic and military aid at them.

They are legitimizing their hold over former Palestinian territory by way of settling their own people.  After they 'reach that point' of settlement population, the international community won't ever be convinced or committed enough to lift a finger about it.

I do believe that the Israel gov't is run by extreme racists.  I don't believe Israel deserves the piece of land they've taken.  I also don't believe Israel should be the only ones to control the holy city.  (I'm not religious.)

[Char13magne]

No, see, I was giving you the most neutral and nonaggressive answer you're going to get in this thread.

And even then, that statement would have sparked a fight if this thread was really moving.

You guys are mostly making this all up in your heads, if you just wait and see what happens before making judgements, maybe it will surprise you. Oh, and I laregly agree with what Zangi said.

[Strife26]

Eh, I prefer that Israel be put in its place.  Which is as simple as stop throwing economic and military aid at them.

They are legitimizing their hold over former Palestinian territory by way of settling their own people.  After they 'reach that point' of settlement population, the international community won't ever be convinced or committed enough to lift a finger about it.

I do believe that the Israel gov't is run by extreme racists.  I don't believe Israel deserves the piece of land they've taken.  I also don't believe Israel should be the only ones to control the holy city.  (I'm not religious.)

Bad idea. Israel tends to be hyper paranoid. Like seriously, they've been fighting for their survival for an awfully long time now. Assume that all aid to Israel gets dropped off. How long until another Arab coalition decides to try for open warfare? Two things then happen. Option 1: Israel kicks their asses again. Great, we've just got another war easily stoppable by deterrence. Option 2: Israel loses, or is put in jeopardy of losing. Guess what, Israel has nukes. Israel is a nuclear state. Israel would sure as hell use them before they got destroyed.

Furthermore, I don't put a lot of stock in the Israel is evil claims. Sure, they've got their extreme Orthodoxes, but overall they try pretty damn hard to keep the Holy Land open. Remember that the Human Rights Commission has hated Israel for an awfully long time (like all the time) and that Israel is stuck in a pretty bad situation. They've got a history of attempts to destroy them. They've got a single country where they hold power, but have to deal with incessant terror attacks. Plus, due to the urbanized nature, if they attempt to react to said terror attacks, they get smashed by the media. What would you expect them to do? I didn't see anything unreasonable in their last foray, big military doesn't work all that well as a scalpel, but sometime all you have is a hammer.