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Author Topic: Advice on Mega Construction  (Read 4593 times)

Kartik

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Advice on Mega Construction
« on: April 29, 2010, 05:36:29 pm »

Hey.

new to this forum, i want some advice on a mega construction. its heavily inspired by Flarechannel

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=b9ba24aa23b227d544ec25320aaa57b9&topic=43679.0
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

im considering taking up alot of the stuff he has built and make something similar, except the sun temple of armok which i plan to be an exact copy in QuantumSawdust's honor.

this will be my first megaconstruction, though i have had quite big fortresses so shouldn't be a problem.
i just wonder how to start such a project?

i will post a pic with my embarking spot later. haven't found the exact one yet.

any advice on big constructions will be welcome :)

Edit:
i now have a blueprint for my defensive wall.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kartik~
« Last Edit: May 01, 2010, 04:44:24 am by Kartik »
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darkflagrance

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2010, 05:48:09 pm »

Hey.

new to this forum, i want some advice on a mega construction. its heavily inspired by Flarechannel

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?PHPSESSID=b9ba24aa23b227d544ec25320aaa57b9&topic=43679.0
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

im considering taking up alot of the stuff he has built and make something similar, except the sun temple of armok which i plan to be an exact copy in QuantumSawdust's honor.

this will be my first megaconstruction, though i have had quite big fortresses so shouldn't be a problem.
i just wonder how to start such a project?

i will post a pic with my embarking spot later. haven't found the exact one yet.

any advice on big constructions will be welcome :)

Kartik~

The biggest issue that Quantum suffered was FPS. Takes steps to control it in advance.
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DarthCloakedDwarf

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #2 on: April 29, 2010, 06:02:15 pm »

*Urist McCloaked has entered a fey mood!*
*Urist McCloaked has claimed a laptop computer!*

I must know the name of that visualizer.

I must.

I must.

I must.

I must.

I must...
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Kartik

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2010, 06:04:12 pm »

*Urist McCloaked has entered a fey mood!*
*Urist McCloaked has claimed a laptop computer!*

I must know the name of that visualizer.

I must.

I must.

I must.

I must.

I must...

i think its Visual Fortress

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39541.0
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DarthCloakedDwarf

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2010, 06:05:27 pm »

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Yes. Clearly a bug that ought to be fixed in the future, but exploit it in the meantime.

Aescula: *snerk*  Just thought of a picture I saw a long tome ago...
Darth Guy: A long, long tome ago, in a library far, far away?

Kartik

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2010, 06:06:44 pm »

i think its Visual Fortress

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=39541.0
I thought VF didn't work with 2010.

the fort is from the old version. i took the pic from his thread :)
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Kartik

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2010, 06:25:45 pm »

if anyone could get me ANY visualiser so i can show my possible embark spots?
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wallie79r

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2010, 06:44:04 pm »

any advice on big constructions will be welcome :)

First thing you need to know is that Flarechannel was a huge project, I forget how long it took him but I would most emphatically not recommend something of that scale as your first megaproject. That said, jumping in to unknown waters headfirst is the true dwarven way, so here's the advice I have to offer.
1. You can never have too many masons. Nearly every dwarf in your fort should have masonry enabled, possibly metalsmithing and carpentry as well if you want wood or metal constructions. Use workshop profiles to prevent the unwashed masses from wasting your workshop space.
2. Designate stockpiles near the construction of the material you want to use. In addition to the obvious benefit, this makes it easier to find the right material in the construction list thingy.
3. Plan out each step beforehand, preferably on graph paper. There's nothing worse than discovering that your pump tower doesn't have room for the mechanisms to be added, or that you misestimated an angle somewhere and need to rebuild the whole thing.
4. When building structures with traditional rectangular floorplans, start from the corners and places that can't be reached.
5. Deconstructing takes much longer than constructing.
6. Despite the above, the best way to make complicated constructions is to fill the entire space you want to use with stairs, then gradually replace the stairs with whatever you want to be there. Be warned that this takes forever.
7. If you have a powerful computer and a fortress that minimizes pathfinding, you might be able to keep your FPS above 25. Possibly the hardest part of megaprojects is surviving the FPS hit, don't give up when you realize that the new inverted magmafall drops your FPS to 5.
8. Your military must be well-armed and vigilant. Your dwarves will be spending lots of time outside, so your construction yards need to be well protected.
9. You may want to consider building temporary habitations, especially dining halls and bedchambers, near the construction yards to reduce travel times.
10. Be careful. Its easy to forget that constructions can't be supported by bridges, or that you can't construct stairs down over empty air, or that your dwarves need food to live.
11. If you want to make things out of metal, glass, soap, or something else unusual, start large scale production long before you start working. Its amazing how quickly a glass pyramid can drain your stockpiles if you haven't spent the last few decades preparing for it.
12. If you're doing anything involving water or lava/magma, make absolutely sure you understand the flow mechanisms perfectly. What you think you know from standard gameplay is very different from what you need to know to create a fluid-based megaproject.
Anyway, thats all I can think of, good luck!
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Kartik

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2010, 06:58:22 pm »

any advice on big constructions will be welcome :)
Wall of text

That was greatly appreciated. Flarechannel got about 240 years old. i dont plan to go that long. this will be pretty miniscale compared.

i have already decided to sketch the first few bigger things in advance to avoid suddenly have missplaced a pillar by 1 >.< and 8. will be taken care off. on the picture you see that defensive wall? thats my first primary objective. then i can have peace to work on the others.

but what is wisest? start building above ground or first establish a foothold in the region by digging in and growing in numbers?
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Retro

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2010, 08:36:32 pm »

You're going to need to dig first simply to produce stone. Start with a few layers to procure stone and dig out temporary residence and farming areas and whatnot, then start building up I'd say.

darkflagrance

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2010, 08:45:44 pm »

any advice on big constructions will be welcome :)

First thing you need to know is that Flarechannel was a huge project, I forget how long it took him but I would most emphatically not recommend something of that scale as your first megaproject.

It only took him a little more than 1.5 years or continuous playing while he went to class.
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Zebra2

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2010, 08:56:05 pm »

Planning is key. Don't mistake this kind of project for something of similar scale underground. Above ground is 10x the effort.

And not no hijack, but does anyone know about how one can maximize sky z-levels? It seems in .03 there are only about 15 levels above the highest point on the map.
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Max White

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2010, 08:57:13 pm »

Best advice is to not look for advice.
Mega constructions going wrong is both fun and FUN.

Alkyon

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2010, 09:04:11 pm »

Planning is key. Don't mistake this kind of project for something of similar scale underground. Above ground is 10x the effort.

And not no hijack, but does anyone know about how one can maximize sky z-levels? It seems in .03 there are only about 15 levels above the highest point on the map.

I wouldn't say 10x effort, at least if you're using stone.  3x minimum though.  Normally, you create rooms by digging them out to create the walls.  When building a bedroom outdoors, especially if there is no floor below you, you have to also create the floors, and a roof (the floor of the next level), each one is a minimum 1x workload, and more like a 1.5x workload as material has to be brought in for each tile instead of carted away.  So, closer to 4.5x to 5x the effort.

Also, I've heard that in DF2010, the map resizes if you build up, to be constantly about 15 levels above the highest ground or construction.  I haven't built up though, so don't take my word on it...

Best advice is to not look for advice.
Mega constructions going wrong is both fun and FUN.

Building a project that fails in a hilarious catastrophic way with unexpected results such as setting floor tiles on fire (Something I managed to accomplish in 40d on accident but I never managed to recreate) is wonderful FUN.  Building a project that fails because you didn't set something up right hand have to tear at least half of it down is NOT fun.
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Retro

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Re: Advice on Mega Construction
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2010, 09:27:55 pm »

And not to hijack, but does anyone know about how one can maximize sky z-levels? It seems in .03 there are only about 15 levels above the highest point on the map.

I've heard that in DF2010, the map resizes if you build up, to be constantly about 15 levels above the highest ground or construction.  I haven't built up though, so don't take my word on it...

Not sure about that, but I know you can set aboveground height in the worldgen parameters. 15's just the default. And I agree with your point on Fun - megaconstructions are very, very painstaking, and fucking up the whole thing is a huge pain (sometimes undoing days of effort, sigh). If you want something done right, Fun is very much not fun. It's never wrong to ask for advice.
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