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[Vester]

Again, that's due to tooth, hoof, bone, horn, and nail having the same impact values - in other words, being as weak as - skin.

[Snoopicus]

Modern manufacturing practices actually combine the best of craftsmanship and mass production. Craftsman develop the prototype product according to the desired specifications (We could apply this to wheat, guns, whatever) test, rebuild, test, and once the prototype is in working order, it is mass produced.

Craftsmen tend to work a lot faster when they have great equipment and modern know how.

On a side/side/side note, the technical school I worked at for a while actually had a gunsmithing program. Pretty neat stuff going on in there.

The poster earlier suggesting that by combining modern know-how and ancient know-how to somehow avoid having to make trade-offs needs to re-evaluate the situation. Modern wheat development (or any other farm crop for that matter) is so advanced it would blow your socks off - we are talking thousands upon thousands of different types of wheat.

Something from earlier caught my eye too! I hear the phrase "Heavy armor getting stuck in the mud" a whole lot when discussing the downsides of wearing metal armor. This statement completely circumvents the difficulties normal people, who are not wearing armor, have when trying to negotiate muddy areas, and additionally implies that metal armor was extremely heavy. I guess I'm saying blame the mud more than the heavy armor. Mud will mess up your day, armor or not.

[Dwarfoloid]

Cloth armor is.

Or to be more specific, clothing items seem to be overpowered against natural attacks, no matter the actual material used. On the other hand, leather armours are underpowered against metal weapons, and this would undoubtedly apply to cloth armour as well if it was included in the game. Armour of organic materials survived as affordable protection all the way to early modern times, especially as shields (like the Moorish daraqua, or Persian cane shields). Even paper was used as armour, with Korean layered paper armour being reputedly capable of stopping musket balls (I can produce quotation for that if there is interest).

As I said before though, the problem with light armours isn't really material problem, but more of a problem with the game seeing no (or little?) difference in the protective qualities of an article of clothing and an actual piece of armor made out of the same material. At least chest and head pieces of light armour should be very different from the clothing articles. There should also be a second type of leather chest piece, one that covered both upper and lower arms and legs, not just the upper parts like the current chest piece does.

[Shinziril]

In particular, armor made out of cloth and other similarly weak materials generally works on the principles of "Stuff fifty layers in there, the sword might get through but it'll have lost most of its energy".  Leather, on the other hand, can be stiffened quite significantly by boiling it, to the point where you can end up with something the consistency of wood if you do it for long enough.  Of course, if you do that, it's also quite brittle, but you can just make sturdy scale armor and replace the broken scales after each fight.

Perhaps cloth "armor" could be made to work like another tissue layer, forcing the weapon to penetrate it and lose energy in order to do damage?  I *think* this is already done for normal tissue layers . . .

[Dwarfoloid]

Agreed, but it is also notable that hide and leather were often formed into a thick layered armours as well, perhaps even more often so than used as single thick pieces hardened by boiling or other treatment.

The following is a description of Chou Dynasty era layered hide armour, and this type of protection is mentioned as late as late Ming dynasty and early Qing Dynasty (by then being made of buffalo hide and possibly lacquered). Similar type of armour was also used by Native North Americans and Mongols, and a Greek Linothorax made out of leather would not have been too dissimilar (what material the Linothorax was most commonly made of is debated).

Both Thomas of Spalato and Marco Polo seem to have described the Mongol variety (of ox-hide) as being "very strong".

The kia made from the hide of the two-horned rhinoceros (si) consisted of seven layers; that made from the hide of the single-horned rhinoceros (se) consisted of six layers; and that made from a combination of both types of hide, consisted of five layers. As the two-horned rhinoceros was thought to live for a hundred years and the one-horned variety for two hundred years, armour from the hides was said to last for similar periods. Therefore, an armour made from a mixture of both would be expected to last for three hundred years.

To make a cuirass, a dummy torso was prepared and the hides weighted. Two piles equal in weight were allocated, one for the upper half and one for the lower. The hides were then cut and fitted to the dummy and the various layers placed on each other and then sewn at the edges. As far as one can judge, the finished cuirass was like a sleevless coat opening at the front-the upper half from neck to loins and the lower, forming a skirt, reaching to the knees. These Kia could be rolled up when not in use and stored in a case termed kao.

From Oriental Armour by H.R. Robinson.

The wiki article below claims that the layered construction was used with the European padded jacks as well, though it doesn't seem to mention any kind of significant possibility that these armours would sometimes be made entirely from leather or hide. Ofc, it is my impression that leather and hide armours were far more common in eastern Eurasia than in western as primary means of protection, being more often of auxiliary nature in Europe (such as with the cuir-bouilli which, afaik, was mostly intended to be worn over mail when used as is, and possibly only used to face padded jacks when meant as primary means of protection).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson

I think all types of armour need to act akin to additional tissue layer if they currently do not do so. The "light" armours should simply form a much thicker layer, or even work as multiple layers (which might be easiest way to emulate them in game). I'm rather unsure as well on whether force is taken away from a blow as it passes through tissue layers or if the game simply randomizes penetration rolls. I'm actually guessing that the latter is the case currently.

[ZeroGravitas]

Mind you, there are precious few materials sharper (and easier to make sharp) than obsidian, especially those that are as durable as well. So... hand-crafted chipped obsidian axe? Outperforms most mass-produced metal ones.

Well, at least for cutting people. Metal axes might be better for cutting trees because a chipped obsidian edge is basically broken glass in that it cuts very cleanly without causing much tissue damage, and that doesn't work out so well when you need the hole made by the first cut to cut deeper into a tree trunk.

Or until you need to cut someone wearing any hard protective armor and your axe shatters. Or you miss your opponent and hit a rock and your axe chips. Over time your axe just falls to pieces. Sounds like an inferior product to me.

[flames removed - threetoe]

[Satarus]

We're fairly certain how they made Wootz Steel (the actual stuff they used back in the crusades).  The problem is, the ores they used were completely exhausted.  The ores they used contained traces of Tungsten or other metals to create a superior alloy that the ancients could not duplicate.  You are making the assumption that possession implies mastery.  They knew how to make the stuff, but they didn't know why it worked.  Today we know why that form of steel was so much superior to the crap Europeans were using and we can recreate it. 

[Solarn]

Mind you, there are precious few materials sharper (and easier to make sharp) than obsidian, especially those that are as durable as well. So... hand-crafted chipped obsidian axe? Outperforms most mass-produced metal ones.

Well, at least for cutting people. Metal axes might be better for cutting trees because a chipped obsidian edge is basically broken glass in that it cuts very cleanly without causing much tissue damage, and that doesn't work out so well when you need the hole made by the first cut to cut deeper into a tree trunk.

Or until you need to cut someone wearing any hard protective armor and your axe shatters. Or you miss your opponent and hit a rock and your axe chips. Over time your axe just falls to pieces. Sounds like an inferior product to me.

Dude, have you ever handled obsidian? That shit is tough. Heavy metal armour will shatter it, but I was never claiming otherwise. Modern body armour would be like butter before it though.

[flames removed - threetoe]

[soup_alex]

Nice to see that this thread turned back into a discussion of the DF2010 materials system, rather than a self-appointed history buff dick-waving competition... well, almost.

[Arkenstone]

*REDACTED*

[ThreeToe]

Let's try to be nice and polite.  If you have any other problems with this thread, hit the moderator button.

[Arkenstone]

Ok, let's try to put this thread's past behind us.  I've started a new thread to continue the constructive part of this one; anyone who wants to help please refrain from coming back to this discussion.