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Author Topic: Worldgen survival  (Read 1652 times)

DalGren

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Worldgen survival
« on: April 28, 2010, 06:33:44 am »

I am developing a mod based entirely on harpies.
It's a different take on the regular gameplay of Fort mode, forcing to develop overworld and with wooden structures. It's more intelligent and "evolved" harpies with arms and stuff, and nifty bronze talons. Kind of like elemental beings.
It's complete, language files and all, but I can't release it.
I have noticed that ensuring their survival in worldgen is close to impossible, and I would like to ask for opinions on why, and trying to determine if this can be caused by bugs or errors.

First, making them [FEMALE] only doesn't ensure their survival for sure. I had to add males as a caste, more alike to "birdmen" than harpies, and they have descendants alright. But the race still don't make it past year 800, even if having maxages close to 1000 years. Males are rare, but even bringing them to parity, they don't make it at all.

I tried adding [POPULATION_SIZE:20:30], following the wiki, it should generate 20 to 30 individuals each year. Adding them to the main race, and to the male-only caste, no individuals seem to generate at all.

I am considering if the cause can be the rarity of the caste that can become queens (with ratio of 1 and littersize of 1), but the dumps show that they civs always manage to find their queen somewhere.

Another thing might be their stats. They are very strong and agile, but go down quickly. Altering this might alter their chances in worldgen, but would make them overly powerful in battle, and I want to make them a "legitimate" race to play with.

So, what do you think the problem is? Might I be hitting a bug somewhere? Anyone has developed a way to test if population_size works at all with entities?
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Deon

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 06:51:44 am »

[POPULATION_SIZE:20:30] works for wild animals only. It means that there may be from 20 to 30 critters on your map each year. I do not get the "minimum" though because there may be none... Which is weird.

Do you have a CHILD token?

P.S. It's POPULATION_NUMBER. Check your errorlog.txt often.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 06:53:42 am by Deon »
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DalGren

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 08:16:26 am »

Ah it's [POPULATION_NUMBER:20:30] in the raws, I was writing the post from memory. :P
Errorlog is empty.
Child token? Yes, it's set at 1. Would I need to set BABY as well or is it automatic?

So far nothing works, I even gave them a caste of gigantic semimegabeast bird-behemoths to try raising their chances of survival, but not even that.
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Zangi

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 08:41:54 am »

Personality. 

That can strongly effect survival rate of a civ...  You can have a civ of weak... very weak and small creatures, but give them the 'best' personalities and they can dominate... or at least survive, depending on what equipment/job they have available... and some other stuff...

EDIT: I can probably give a rundown later of what personalities helps and what doesn't when I get access to my DF.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 08:44:09 am by Zangi »
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Deon

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 08:47:28 am »

Are they by chance EVIL or SAVAGE?

Which biomes do they settle in?
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DalGren

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 09:58:49 am »

So far the most I am able to obtain is this:
Code: [Select]
26: Femelikifino, "Bristlestyle", a town
Owner: The Tactical Wings, harpies
Parent Civ: The Skies of Gliding, harpies
21 harpies
Not encouraging at all. I kind of like the idea of them being endangered and having to deal with stuff, but this is too extreme :P
Quote from:
Are they by chance EVIL or SAVAGE?

Which biomes do they settle in?
I gave them neither [GOOD][SAVAGE] or [EVIL] tags, to try having them in all possible available biomes. They can use either good or evil wood and plants.
The biome of choice is ANY_TEMPERATE_FOREST.

Personality. 
That can strongly effect survival rate of a civ...  You can have a civ of weak... very weak and small creatures, but give them the 'best' personalities and they can dominate... or at least survive, depending on what equipment/job they have available... and some other stuff...
Well, it might be useful to paste the raws. The ratios are a little messed up by tinkering with them, so please excuse that. (filenames and declaration tokens skipped, again no errors logged)

Creature file
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Entity file (again a bit messed up from trying stuff)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "BIRD" symbol is one I added, no cause of errors.
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Grimlocke

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 10:28:05 am »

You might want to check the legend to see if it is purely the lack of breeding or some problem with megbeasts and other civs killing them too fast.

You can also give them some other biomes to live in, like tropical forests, taigas, tundras, hills and whatnot.
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Chromasphere

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2010, 10:43:16 am »

In the entity.txt try removing or changing:

 [USE_GOOD_ANIMALS][USE_EVIL_ANIMALS]

   [USE_GOOD_PLANTS][USE_EVIL_PLANTS]

   [USE_GOOD_WOOD][USE_EVIL_WOOD]

When making my race, I did the same and got the same results as you.  If memory serves, I deleated the section above and they survived. 
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DalGren

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2010, 10:52:13 am »

Hm, I generated a couple test "small regions" and seems megabeasts pwn them really hard. They aren't that hard to kill in-game but in worldgen they are unstoppable.

Removing the good/evil wood and stuff changed nothing at all. The problem seems to be low population combined with overpowered megabeasts...there must be some way to deal with this.
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Deon

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2010, 11:23:55 am »

Do not remove  "USE_*", it doesn't change anything but items/pets avaliability.

And yeah, megabests are evil. Try to reduce the amount of caves to minimum.
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Zangi

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2010, 12:06:30 pm »

Spoiler: Personality Stuff (click to show/hide)

You might want to check the legend to see if it is purely the lack of breeding or some problem with megbeasts and other civs killing them too fast.

You can also give them some other biomes to live in, like tropical forests, taigas, tundras, hills and whatnot.

Spoiler: BIOME (click to show/hide)

How is the Breeding?  Are there enough males getting married and making kids?
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DalGren

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2010, 01:09:13 pm »

Tried the personalities Zangl suggested, no go.
As for ALL_FOREST biomes, I had that originally, but the end result was the same, so I tried reducing it to avoid conflict with other races.

Worlds I generated after changing the biomes and personalities, all harpies ended up extinct by year 120, generally by causes of ettin or dragon. So yes, the problem is that they cannot do anything against megabeasts.
Reducing the number of caves didn't seem to help, some ettin is always causing trouble.
How can I solve this problem without making them extremely numerous (I don't want them to conquer the entire region, it'd be even more out of place) or making them too cheap to play with?

...

Reading through legends (took a time, most messages are "the ettin superlongname stole a wild strawberry from this site"), seems the cause is indeed megabeasting. Also there are way more birdmen than I expected, being very prominent on legends. So maybe reproduction is not a problem, after all. At least 80-90% of the entities do get couples.
At this rate I will just hold the release until some newer DF update....a mod requiring a player to do multiple steps to ensure the race is just playable...is a bit shameful to release :P (also seems getting extracts from vials at workshops doesn't work well so some of their reactions aren't balanced right...)
At least I got more time to draw some explanative illustrations or something.

NOTE: In the worldgen map, it seems that whenever a "harpian town" becomes a "town" (aka deserted), the area around it gets deforested. Has to do with megabeasts? (I used to think it was deforesting from the harpies but nope...)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 01:15:35 pm by DalGren »
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Deon

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2010, 01:20:51 pm »

It IS the deforestation caused by harpies. Towns and dark towers remove forest around them.
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Zangi

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2010, 01:32:30 pm »

End result the same... meaning they were getting destroyed by other civilizations instead?  Or still getting killed off by megabeasts?

Don't believe I've had this much trouble with megabeast induced genocide... (well there was the time I jacked up the number of caves and forgot about that... only the humans survived...) 
But my maps are always medium or something so every civ, including custom, usually survive 2 out of 3 or 4...  or at least 1 out of 2 or 3.  To the year 1000.

Try bringing up max # of civs on a map?  If 2 out of 2 harpy civs get destroyed by megabeast...  definitely bring down the number of caves even further?
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darkflagrance

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Re: Worldgen survival
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2010, 01:35:00 pm »

Maybe try making this number something ridiculous, like 600?

[START_GROUP_NUMBER:600]

I'm not sure if this tag is still used in 31.x; my modding experience is mainly from 40d. However, using this tag I pulled off a race of immortals who did not reproduce and were slowly declining in number.
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