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Author Topic: Dealing with the unkillables.  (Read 3838 times)

Arkenstone

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 08:04:33 pm »

Aren't flyers also susceptible from cave-ins from above?  I have yet to try this out yet, but my plan to deal with my own unkillable is to create a 3x3 platform supported by a single pillar in the entrance to my fort.  As I understand it, unkillables will destroy most non-wall, non-fortification constructions.  So there's no lever-timing to worry about.  Absent any dwarves due to burrow alert and other destructibles, the baddie should head straight to the pillar, destroy it, and seal its own fate.  The pillar is its own bait!  Testing this as soon as I play next!
Nice idea; all you need is to put some cage traps next to it and... 8)

Can Forgotten Beasts and Titans be tamed by a Dungeon Master?  I seem to remember that some mega beasts can...

Besides, everything melts in the magma sea...
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

Shrike

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2010, 08:20:30 pm »

Pretty dang sure that even a flier would have problems if it was trapped under a collapsing ceiling.

Just need 2 z-levels if it was a corridor with a droppable roof. Unless that's no longer an insta-kill.
For extra fun, depending on how you dig it, you could just keep a solid chunk of earth as a cap, then keep lowering the path as you dropped it onto a single-square pillar of solid stone. Build the support, cut out the solid earth/rock, and you've got a guaranteed kill. Not sure how it would affect the constructed floor underneath. But then, you just go down a z-level, build a new support, cut out the solid rock, and repeat. When it gets too deep to be feasible, build a floor over the pit, and either do it with the constructions alone, or move along the path and get a new hammer to drop.
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VerdantSF

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2010, 09:39:15 pm »

Darn it... didn't work.  They really do need live bait.  The titan refused to bust down the pillar by itself :(.

Arkenstone

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2010, 09:46:05 pm »

Well then, make it lever-activated; with a dwarf locked up in the same room as the lever to ensure it's pulled immediately.
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

Hugna

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2010, 10:47:00 pm »

Heres my solutions i can give via other people.

1) There are many ways to kill a Bronze Collosus. For starters:
A: Cast out a long drawbridge, and should you have a magma area, or perhaps lucky enough, a water source, you can flood enough of a channeled hole to keep it out, and keep a lever long inside the place so they don't "run away while trying to lever it" and he will flip into the air, and fall into the water/magma. Though water won't have an effect, if you were to put a 30 z-level place under the bridge, it should kill him when he falls down. Hell, i bet 100 z-levels will be overkill, and worth it, but way too long without at least 3 miners.
AA: As a side note, you can instead make pressure plates on the starting area of the bridge and set them to one-use in order to make it stay up, but keep a lever for putting it down, slate it for removal when you put it back down, and rebuild it.

B: The atom-smasher move works also. But i'm not sure how it works.

C: If for the love of god, you can perfectly make a region with a volcano, some trees, and water, you can easily prepare a Boatmurdered strategy, aka, Flood the world with magma, or more specifically, the map itself. You can easily flood with pipes enabling you to immediately kill the Bronze Colossus before it makes it to your entrance. I actually want a region that enables me such a feat, but i can't find the perfect seed. If i did, whoa nellie, i will rip all invasions to shreds, and actually survive even a megabeast. But underground attacks... are horrid.... unless you wanna pump magma down to the underground to stop them via stair removal, channeling, and pipes.

2) Well, i can't say for sure if you can stop it from moving to you, but i assume you can edit the parameters on titan requirements to 10,000 population. But i'm not sure if titans are megabeasts. I wish you could easily set how many megabeasts there are, and of what kind.

3) I was 100% certain i could easily know how to remove it from your region entirely without messing with the raws, however for the god of it all, i can't remember.   :-\ ......  :-[

Theres plenty of ways, but... i guess everyone already answered all these... i didn't feel like reading everything on all posts. Sorry.
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Wolfius

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2010, 04:31:58 am »

What would happen if you lowered the ignition or boiling point of whatever material it was made out of?
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Dorf3000

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2010, 06:10:09 am »

Has anyone found an effective way to deal with the unkillable bronze colossi/titans/forgotten beasts?
...
I'm just looking for one of the following, in order to most preferred to least:

1) Way to kill them(seems unlikely)
2) Way to stop them from coming to visit my fortress.
3) Way to remove them from the game entirely,

I don't see any unkillable creatures, just Elves not willing to do the job right.  You've been spoiled by how easy combat was in 40d, thinking that a couple of guys with swords should be able to defeat the 1000-year-old monstrosity from the depths that is made from solid stone.

Everything can be crushed. Everything can be obsidianised. Everything is stopped by a stone wall. Almost everything dies in magma. Most things die from long falls. Some things can be drowned, or atomsmashed, or caught in cage traps.  Yes, you will need to use something other than a military squad to defeat these things.  Get used to it, or turn off invasions and play your Elf Fortress.
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Toady Two

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2010, 07:21:16 am »

Quote
You've been spoiled by how easy combat was in 40d, thinking that a couple of guys with swords should be able to defeat the 1000-year-old monstrosity from the depths that is made from solid stone.

I kind of agree with you. Megabeasts used to be such pushovers and now some of them( rare ) require some planning and ingenuity to take down. It would be cool if siege weapons were effective against soild stone/metal opponents. Has anyone tried using them? Right now i think we have to resort to tricks like cave ins and obsidian casing.

Undead deserved a nerf so a skeletal mule didn't mean certain death and it was a high priority for Toady. The bigger monstrosities now cause respect and i personally like it.  ;)
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Arkenstone

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2010, 09:38:57 am »

I see what you're saying there; however, I still think that cage traps are the answer to everything, unless you want (secondary consideration: "and can afford") an epic showdown between your legendary warriors and whatever's coming your way.  But such tests of skill can always occur in an arena...
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

RandomNumberGenerator

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2010, 09:51:59 am »

Has anyone found an effective way to deal with the unkillable bronze colossi/titans/forgotten beasts?
...
I'm just looking for one of the following, in order to most preferred to least:

1) Way to kill them(seems unlikely)
2) Way to stop them from coming to visit my fortress.
3) Way to remove them from the game entirely,

I don't see any unkillable creatures, just Elves not willing to do the job right.  You've been spoiled by how easy combat was in 40d, thinking that a couple of guys with swords should be able to defeat the 1000-year-old monstrosity from the depths that is made from solid stone.

Everything can be crushed. Everything can be obsidianised. Everything is stopped by a stone wall. Almost everything dies in magma. Most things die from long falls. Some things can be drowned, or atomsmashed, or caught in cage traps.  Yes, you will need to use something other than a military squad to defeat these things.  Get used to it, or turn off invasions and play your Elf Fortress.

Should 5 dwarves be able to kill a forgotten beast? Probably not. Should 50? Yes. I think so, anyway. It's true that cave-ins crush everything to dust, but cave-in traps aren't resuable, and can mess up your fort's design. With magma/obsidian traps, well, yes they are efficient, but not all of us have computers that can handle pumping magma up 200 z-levels. If you like these "killable" beasts, then great. More power to you, you're apparently a better player than I am. That doesn't mean the rest of us need to play the game your way, because you like it that way, because you think that's how it should be. It may not be a high priority for Toady, and I'm not telling him what to do, but he has acknowledged this as a bug. I'm simply looking for workarounds that don't require a ton of preparation to make a overly complex trap that drains my FPS to 2.
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Necaladun

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2010, 11:00:19 am »

It shouldn't be hard to trap them in a pit, dig yourself a trench, or wall yourself off. If it ruins the game for you, mod/cheat. Set the number of titan's on worldgen. All in all, I like the idea of something my 8 legendary axedwarves won't turn into a bloody mess.
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Shrike

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2010, 11:06:44 am »

Cave-ins are reusable, and can be pretty easily incorporated into long-term fort design. Just use constructions as the hammer, solid rock as the anvil, and fortifications to prevent enemies from being able to escape to the sides. Easier to arrange than a solid rock cave-in. Since fortifications can't be walked on, they can't support a floor like a wall would. One support and one lever is all you need.

Unless, of course, dropping constructions doesn't result in an instant kill.
F=fortification
+=floor
S=support
.= Empty space
p=passageway
Floor 1:
Code: [Select]
FFFFFFFFFFF
pppppSppppp
ppppppppppp
ppppppppppp
ppppppppppp
FFFFFFFFFFF

Floor 2:
Code: [Select]
...........
+++++++++++
+++++++++++
+++++++++++
+++++++++++
...........

Build in from the side, have a bridge or something on floor 2 that can be raised once the trap is built,and the area is secured. Just need to time the lever pull correctly. Fortifications can be replaced with cage traps. Put one between the outside and your fort, and one between your fort and your deep shaft.  Forgotten beast b-gone.
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VerdantSF

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2010, 11:24:44 am »

Should 5 dwarves be able to kill a forgotten beast? Probably not. Should 50? Yes. I think so, anyway. It's true that cave-ins crush everything to dust, but cave-in traps aren't resuable, and can mess up your fort's design.

Cave-in traps can actually look quite nice.  Mine is the entire main entrance hall to my newest fortress.  It's 6 tiles wide, though traffic is limited to 4 across, since there are unramped channels on the sides to force enemies to stay in the killing zone of the unsupported floor above.  The rows of support pillars give it a Moria-esque touch and it actually looks a lot more dwarven than any of my previous fortresses.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 11:29:49 am by VerdantSF »
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VerdantSF

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2010, 11:36:53 am »

All in all, I like the idea of something my 8 legendary axedwarves won't turn into a bloody mess.
You know, that's a good way of looking at it.  I was a bit miffed at having to start a whole new fortress after an unkillable rampaged through my best fortress yet.  But now I'm in a totally different biome (went from warm/dry/sparse forest to cold/wet/trees for miles), with new challenges (aquifer), and *loving* it.  I hope some of my old heroes show up in some engravings later on.  Everything this new fortress does has that tragedy in mind.  I'm going to celebrate when I bag my first so-called unkillable!

Satarus

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Re: Dealing with the unkillables.
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2010, 12:25:37 pm »

What happens when you cave in a ceiling made of constructed walls?  Will that kill the titans/forgotten beasts under it?
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You need to make said elf leather into the most amazing work of art.  Embed it with every kind of gem you have, stud it with metals, and sew images into it.  Erect a shrine outside your fort with that in the center.  Let the elves know that you view their very skin as naught more but a medium for your dwarves to work on.
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