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Author Topic: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens  (Read 18850 times)

DJ

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #90 on: April 27, 2010, 10:53:48 am »

Also, is it not possible that there is some selective pressure towards compassion? After all, the Drake Equation suggests not one but thousands or tens of thousands of alien entities. If this is correct, there is already an existent culture of interacting groups. In such a group, aggressive, violent life forms would be co-cooperatively destroyed by others who vastly outnumber them, and peaceful ones would be accepted in, strengthening this federation, erm, republic... well... my point is, if there is one alien, there are almost certainly many aliens; and if there are many aliens, ones that aggressively strike out in a many-fronted war will quickly loose out. So, good news for us is that if there is alien life, it's already pretty co-operative and benevolent.
More like the peaceful races get wiped out by the aggressive ones, since it makes sense for militarists to be ahead in weapons technology and military infrastructure. Also, Drake's equation is a bunch of bull, but even if it's starting points were true there'd still be a very low number of civilizations because any prudent civilization would wipe out all competition *before* it becomes a threat (which, btw, is also a good reason for aliens to wipe us out if they find us).
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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #91 on: April 27, 2010, 12:27:46 pm »

Now it's the moment where someone says "More likely aggresive militaristic civilizations kill each other in conflicts, or at least get hampered enough that more cooperative ones are far ahead of them. And any reasonable civilization would avoid committing genocide unto it's neighbours because it would set a terribly bad precedent, and would in fact single themselves for genocide as well"

(AKA: Summing it up in two words: "Is not!". After which someone else will come around and say -in a more ellaborate way- "is too!")
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RedKing

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #92 on: April 27, 2010, 12:59:35 pm »

Yeah, I think we're basically down to the "Is man inherently good or inherently evil?" argument. Only projected on hypothetical aliens.

I stand by the notion that, because we're a lot of right bastards, it's reasonable to assume that other races could be as well. Doesn't mean that they'd want to kill us immediately, but also means we can't ignore that possibility.
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Chthonic

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #93 on: April 27, 2010, 02:00:46 pm »

Here's the (excessively long) scenario:

The xenomorphs are pretty similar to us.  They're made of carbohydrates, proteins, lipids, and water, they breathe oxygen and exhale carbon dioxide.  Their genetic information is carried in DNA and expressed through RNA.  Good stuff--this is all like a basic life-kit of really simple chemicals that are really good at expressing complexity when they're stirred around in the same soup.  They prefer temperate climes that hover between the freezing and boiling points of water, because liquid water is awesome.  They're even keen on Earth-style gravity because that keeps all their air and water from whooshing away into space.

Not only are those basic building blocks the same, but they're bipedal, having evolved from quadrupeds because quadrupeds are parsimonious, and they need their hands in order to use tools.  Bilateral symmetry, erect posture, opposable thumbs, internal lungs and other dry land accoutrements (they're land-dwellers . . . figure that if you're going to take advantage of basic technologies like fire, you've probably evolved to be a land-dweller) and basically they are your standard rubber-forehead-alien.  Maybe with a little light variation . . . some scales, say, or retinas right-side out, or separate orifices for breathing and eating.  They see using light and hear using sound because those are both relevantly scaled modalities useful throughout the course of evolution.  They're even roughly our size.

So these guys could basically be our long-lost cousin space-apes.  And they have a civilization that ultimately results in space travel, 'cuz if they can't cruise space, we're really not interested.  This civilization is basically the same as the one we'll eventually end up with because game theory, like physics, chemistry, and evolution, follows a universal set of rules.

Now . . . some differences.  Though they have DNA and RNA, obviously their genomes are completely different than ours.  Anything that can be arbitrary (restriction sequences, promoter regions, etc.) is completely different unless there's some kinetic reason for it not to be.  Chromosome number, you name it.  The short story is that they're not interested in our women.

Likewise, though they have a craving for energy-packed protein-rich flesh and their genetic code comprises a library of amino acids assigned to three-base codons (two means only sixteen amino acids, minus STOP codons, and four would be 256, which is way more than is probably necessary) the more complicated amino acids are different, and even the simple ones have a different chirality.  They don't have the biochemistries to deal with the terrestrial complement of proteins.  Eating human flesh makes them nauseous and gives them diarrhea.  They're totally not interested in chowing down on us, our cats, or even our crops.

Their own proteins, based on a differing complement of amino acids, bear little or no relationship to our own except where form follows function--and even here, since the forms are made of different building blocks, they're incompatible.  Think linux and windows, but less compatible.  For them, there's no compelling commercial interest in taking tissue samples or probing us.  Also, we smell funny.

They've evolved on a world with a seventeen hour light-dark cycle.  Even hanging out on Earth gives them chronic jet-lag and makes them grumpy and depressed . . . and to add insult to injury, even though they're bona-fide oxygen breathers and carbohydrate metabolizers, their regulatory systems are calibrated to a partial pressure of oxygen outside their comfortable range of adaptation, making them giddy or causing them to pass out after just a few minutes in our air.  Their food crops really suck it up . . . soil nutrients are all wrong, the bacteria just aren't right, the photoperiod and season lengths are uncomfortable, and they're just not equipped to handle the spectrum of light our sun puts out.  So these aliens really are not all that keen on vacationing here, much less moving in to stay.

This basic incompatibility also makes us lousy slaves.  If they want us to grub around in their spice mines back home, they have to raise our kind of food and one little breach in the mine's Earth-air-type seal and oops . . . gotta import more of us from halfway across the galaxy.  They also have to go through the hassle of learning our language if they want us to work efficiently.  It's just so much easier and cost-effective to make slaves of your own species.

As for the resources buried in Earth's crust.  If there's one thing any canny space-faring species can use, it's more basic elements to fuel their chemical and metallurgical industries.  Except that, as has been pointed out several times in this thread, all that crap's floating around in space for the taking, along with more solar power than you can shake a stick at.  You don't have to waste energy boosting it into orbit or trucking it home halfway across the galaxy to a place where the climate's more hospitable.

. . . and you really don't have to quarrel with natives over it.  Space is huge!  We're pretty unlikely to run out of it before the next Big Bang.  You have to go out of your way to even be likely to randomly bump into someone else, much less find that the one thing you need more than anything is only found on their home planet under their big tree . . . much less exert the effort involved in genocide . . .

Speaking of which, space is huge!  Complete genocide's a pretty tough job, what with having to scrub out every individual likely to hold a grudge, and the fact is that once interstellar travel is in-play, every dude with a decent fusion-or-whatever-powered rig has Armageddon at the press of a button.  Do-it-yourself Rods from God, near-C collisions, a meltdown of whatever immense power source allows you to jet around from star-to-star . . . why risk it?

So . . . in summary, interstellar conflict between us and this hypothetical species is:
a.) pointless
b.) possibly dangerous
. . . and if they're smart enough to come visit, they know it.
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Eagleon

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #94 on: April 27, 2010, 03:21:01 pm »

I see three likely scenarios, given that there are aliens around.

1 - Aliens see us as scientific curiosities, perhaps even cultural resources. Right now, they might be listening to our music. Hell, that's pretty much the first thing I'd seek out if I met aliens, besides any possibility of functional immortality. They don't want to make contact because that would contaminate our cultural significance, but they will to keep us from destroying ourselves completely, simply because that wouldn't be interesting or useful.

2 - They just aren't interested. They don't need us for our resources, and they have better things to do than mess with damp, odorous apes with silly ambitions that don't affect them. Either they're so alien they a) don't recognize us or b) observe the universe differently, or they just can't afford to spend the time to mount expeditions to study us, since they're busy with some megaproject (which is the smart thing for humans to do too, but that would be herding cats)

3 - They've already accelerated a mass packet to destroy us, the moment they heard our radios. No, Bruce Willis will not save us. We'd have virtually no warning. It's the cheap way to destroy a civilization - you don't need to land with ray guns, just build a decently sized rail-gun that can launch a projectile with -some- trajectory correction capability to account for the immense distance involved. Trivial for anyone with access to manufacturing equipment in a debris field even a fraction of the size of our asteroid belt. There are other possible extinction devices like nano-swarms, but the point is it's not speculation whether an alien species capable of space travel could destroy us without a fight.

We could do it. We don't have the infrastructure, but we could do it, right now, with present-day technology and some clever engineering, if we were out there mining the asteroids. That's what's scary. Never mind Stephen Hawking being afraid of aliens - aliens could be afraid of us. And that's Not Good News.
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RedKing

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #95 on: April 27, 2010, 03:45:58 pm »

See, now Cthonic has a fairly rational, pragmatic explanation why conflict would be unlikely. I'm more keen on accepting that than I am "Aliens will be nice because we shouldn't be so close-minded to think that they're evil."

That said, there's still one potential reason for conflict: Security. Just as all the biochemical incompatibilities you pointed out make it irrational for them to come into conflict with us, there would be no commercial/imperialistic reason for us to go to war with them. We can't eat them, harvest their organs, make them into slaves, etc. But we would still have a not-insignificant faction of military, political and religious leaders here on Earth that would be all in favor of blowing them out of the sky at first sight, just because they MIGHT be a threat.

They might be worried that those funny-smelling ground monkeys could reverse-engineer their fancy technology and come gunning for them at some point in the future. Doubly so if they've read our history as a "civilized" species.

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Zironic

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2010, 06:28:41 pm »

Chemically speaking, it's entirely possible to make organic-styled life, i.e. life analogous to ours, from silicon.  All the same sort of biochemical processes would take place, just at a temperature many thousands of degrees hotter and density even great.  Conditions like the inside of a molten planet.  Theoretically, there could be an entire ecosystem, even civilizations, of silicon-based life floating around under the Earth's mantel, completely oblivious to the fragile, carbon and water based life clinging to their planet's frozen outer crust.
I always wanted to grab some chemistry PhD person, and interrogate him if this is really so, or just a mytho based on layman's misunderstanding of chemistry. After all, silicon might have the same valence as carbon, but what about other properties?

The major issue is that silicon acts as a semiconductor, and the thousands of degrees necessary to render SiO2 gaseous etc...
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Heron TSG

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2010, 08:14:56 pm »

It'd actually be more efficient than what we have. We currently have to have our brain cells shoot out one of two different chemicals to make the electrons flow or not. With a silicon-based cell, the energy producer (mitochondria for us) could simply charge and discharge the P and N junctions of a diode-like structure, which would cut out the chemical-based middleman.
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Croquantes

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2010, 08:59:21 pm »

It's not about aliens being good or evil! The universe is vast, and there could be thousands of alien civilizations out there. All we have to do is contact one "bad" race, and it's curtains for the human race. At this time, humanity is not in a good position to be shouting "Hey! I'm here! Look at me!" because we exist on only one planet. All our eggs are in one basket. That's too -risky-.

It took one disease to decimate the populations of the New World.

Hell, we don't even have any way of protecting ourselves should anything come our way. We can't even protect ourselves from rogue asteroids, and we're still broadcasting our presence to the universe. What do we do if some alien species shows up and finds Earth would make a good resort, sans humanity?
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Heron TSG

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2010, 09:03:46 pm »

We could use our nukes on them. We certainly have enough to blow half the moon away, so why not a spaceship?
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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2010, 09:05:18 pm »

I imagine getting thousands of nukes into space would be a fantastically expensive endeavor. Imagine the exhaust fumes? XD
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Heron TSG

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2010, 09:09:26 pm »

ICBMs nearly leave the atmosphere anyway. All you'd have to do is change the trajectory from a parabola to a straight line.
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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2010, 09:22:07 pm »

It's not about aliens being good or evil! The universe is vast, and there could be thousands of alien civilizations out there. All we have to do is contact one "bad" race, and it's curtains for the human race. At this time, humanity is not in a good position to be shouting "Hey! I'm here! Look at me!" because we exist on only one planet. All our eggs are in one basket. That's too -risky-.

It took one disease to decimate the populations of the New World.

Hell, we don't even have any way of protecting ourselves should anything come our way. We can't even protect ourselves from rogue asteroids, and we're still broadcasting our presence to the universe. What do we do if some alien species shows up and finds Earth would make a good resort, sans humanity?

Yes, but by that logic, it's also true that we need to find just one nice alien race elevate us to a more stable position. So, we have to ask ourselves which of the two is more likely to actively search for us. If it's the Nice ones, then yes, we should remain quiet so that the Bad ones won't see us. If only the aggressive ones look for us, then we must scream for help from the nice ones.

Of course, what people seem to be forgetting is that we have only a 200 Ly diameter sphere's worth of radio waves out there, and I suspect that nearly none of that is actually detectable. We're like someone trying to send semaphore messages to someone in New York from Pluto, plus the fact that we're standing next to a nuclear explosion. A photon or two of wireless dramas floating in the void do not an alien war fleet make.
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Bauglir

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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2010, 09:55:41 pm »

-snip-
« Last Edit: May 04, 2015, 10:15:47 pm by Bauglir »
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Re: Stephen Hawking is afraid of aliens
« Reply #104 on: April 29, 2010, 11:54:19 pm »

Ah, but you're assuming that neurons are binary. They, in fact, have an analogue connection. Further, each neuron is not a simple logical gate, but a self-contained processor. Experiments have shown that individual rat neurons are capable of recognizing faces.

The point is that silicon life would in many ways recognize carbon life right down to chemistry. the "Silicon life" trope is that it is simply a rock-man or a naturally-occurring computer. This is not the case.
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