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[Bandages]

The question is, did Lee Harvey Oswald kill JFK? </conspiracy theory>

There might have been a second batter on the grassy knoll...

OH. MY. GOD.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Forumsdwarf]

Guns just make murder easier to do, both in the physical and mental sense.

So do knives.  The principal difference with guns is the old can use them to protect themselves from the young, women from men, etc.  A gun allows a physically weak person a chance to survive and removes some of the advantage of physical strength in criminal confrontations.
Firearms have been referred to as "the great equalizer".  Since most crimes are committed by young men, who statistically possess the most physical advantages in a melee, this is a beneficial feature of firearms, as it enables other demographic groups less likely to commit crimes to protect themselves.

On the topic of high-powered rifles (hunting, battle, sniper) defenses still outweigh crimes because the crimes are very rare and rifles so ubiquitous (households with nothing but a rifle will be defended with the rifle even if shotguns are better-suited).

[Grakelin]

The question is, did Lee Harvey Oswald kill JFK? </conspiracy theory>

There might have been a second batter on the grassy knoll...

OH. MY. GOD.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[KaelGotDwarves]

Firearms have been referred to as "the great equalizer".  Since most crimes are committed by young men, who statistically possess the most physical advantages in a melee, this is a beneficial feature of firearms, as it enables other demographic groups less likely to commit crimes to protect themselves.

I'm pretty sure anyone without guns getting the shit shot out of them by people with guns would love that "great equalizer" gem.

[Vester]

The question is, did Lee Harvey Oswald kill JFK? </conspiracy theory>

There might have been a second batter on the grassy knoll...

OH. MY. GOD.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You know, when I first saw that scene, I thought he was Nicholas Cage. Never have I been so glad to be wrong in my life.

[Leafsnail]

Probably not a baseball bat, but a fast truck slamming into his open car might have.

My point isn't "OMG U KILLED JFK U BASTARD".  My point is that, when it comes to killing someone, opportunity does matter.  Just having a motive isn't enough... and slamming a truck into him would have several disadvantages (no chance of getting away with it, likely to cause injury to self, driver could've dodged, not that likely to actually kill him...)

Here are stats detailing the drop in violent crime in America during a time of heavy ordinance purchases and lessening wait times for purchase... (ie: gun sales have been going up the past few years, crime has been going down)

Nice flaw in causation.  Your statistics say nothing about actual gun sales, and in any case, there is nothing to suggest the two are linked.  Could it not be that, say, law enforcement has improved, or that social reasons mean less people are driven to crime?

There's plenty of data available if you get your fingers out of your ears.  The previous few posts have been concentrating on single incidents where even one gun could have done the damage.  In order to prevent such a thing, you'd have to totally eliminate every weapon on Earth to prevent these from happening.  Studies show that gun bans raise crime (look at the UK as the major example) and armed citizens deter crime.

We have a lower murder rate than America, so I'm afraid you'll have to discard that one.  And the murder rate has been consistently dropping here (exception being in 2005, a blip caused by the London terror attacks)  in spite of the fact that we are apparently defenceless.  Indeed, this is apparently in spite of laws tightening gun control being introduced on a regular basis.  I don't really care what your NRA funded studies say about us, we have tightening gun control and a falling murder rate.

[PTTG??]

This myth of European Crime is a lot like the myth of European Disease, where somehow the universal health care of Europe and Britain means they are less healthy.
 
I blame the Fox Entertainment Network. They have a parody news/opinion channel that quite a few Americans think is real.

[Strife26]

I don't really care what your NRA funded studies say about us, we have tightening gun control and a falling murder rate.

I don't really care what your Bradley Campaign to Prevent Gun Crimes funded studies say about us.

[Leafsnail]

I don't really care what your NRA funded studies say about us, we have tightening gun control and a falling murder rate.

I don't really care what your Bradley Campaign to Prevent Gun Crimes funded studies say about us.

I haven't said anything about America at all... :/.

Also, wouldn't that group have a vested interest to uh, prevent crime?

[Strife26]

They have an interesting tendency to fund almost all of the American anti-gun groups and a lot of groups to conduct studies.

[Forumsdwarf]

Firearms have been referred to as "the great equalizer".  Since most crimes are committed by young men, who statistically possess the most physical advantages in a melee, this is a beneficial feature of firearms, as it enables other demographic groups less likely to commit crimes to protect themselves.

I'm pretty sure anyone without guns getting the shit shot out of them by people with guns would love that "great equalizer" gem.

Indeed ... if they break in on my old man they'll love it to death.

[Bandages]

Hm, not trying to derail or criticize either side of the argument here. But how exactly did we get on the gun topic? I thought this thread was about where you fall politically :|

[Leafsnail]

They have an interesting tendency to fund almost all of the American anti-gun groups and a lot of groups to conduct studies.

wouldn't that group have a vested interest to uh, prevent crime?

Besides, it's irrelevant, since I wasn't saying anything about America at all...

[Aqizzar]

A current window into American politics, brought to you by Senators Lindsey Graham, Susan Collins, and Scott Brown, self-described "strict Constitutional constructionists", and Joe Lieberman who will say whatever you can punch out of him.

Lieberman and Brown co-introduced today the "Terrorist Expatriation Act", an amendment to 8 U.S.C. § 1481, the bill enumerating the ways that with due process and conviction, the government can strip an American citizen of their citizenship.  The proposed bill would include accusal of association with terrorism suspects.  No trial, no hearing, no evidence.  Exact wording here, if you can decipher it.  Have some articles, they're good fer ya.

Meanwhile, the "Terrorists and Guns: The Nature of the Threat and Proposed Reforms" committee hearing in Congress concerned a bill proposal to bar people on the FBI Terrorism Watch List from buying guns.  Because right now, they can, and 91% of those who try are not so much as given a stern once-over.  Graham and Collins lead the charge to shoot it down.  Quote Collins - "None of us wants a terrorist to be able to purchase a gun, but neither should we want to infringe upon a Constitutional right of law-abiding Americans."  Graham's quote was a little more mind-blowing, but I can't find it for some reason, but it'll turn up.  (Full disclosure: This was certainly prompted by the case of Faisal Shahzad, but it wouldn't have done anything about him.  He purchased a pistol legally some weeks before he started his "plot", and was then not suspected of anything.)

So, to recap.  4th Amendment protections against punishment or deprival without due process and conviction - BAD.  2nd Amendment protections for anyone anywhere in America to buy firearms - GOOD.  I guess the logic being that a person accused of terrorism would lose their citizenship, and therefore not be privilege to the 2nd Amendment, but the language does say "people" and not "citizens", as the gun shops along the Mexican border are quick to remind.  A proud day for Strict-Constructionism.

Allow me to clarify something: I took notice of these stories because of the conversation going on in this thread, but I am not linking anyone to anything espoused.  I though these two things happening today were a juxtaposition interesting enough to mention.  I am not accusing anyone of agreeing or disagreeing with them.  I know there's another flamewar imminent from someone or other, but I don't want it to be over mistaken accusal.

[Strife26]

Ahh, Politics. World's leading supplier of idiocy.