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[Skooma]

As of right now, the prices in the Dwarven economy are arbitrarily set by the nobles (who do it every 2 minutes and message spam like crazy), even the philosopher does it.

In the real economy shopkeepers set their own prices and consumers figure whether or not they want to pay it (supply and demand). This tug of war continues until the consumer buys the item at the price set (equlibrium price) and the shopkeeper either keeps his price the same or adjusts it to sell more product, compete with another shopkeep etc.

The current system is a controlled economy where nobles set prices on a whim where they are disconnected from market forces.

I think Toady should move the Dwarven economy away from a controlled economy to a more free market economy. It may not be the easiest thing to code but it would add a lot to the game. It may even be easier to code a few algorithms for it rather than put it on the AI to figure when and why to adjust a price.

[Kaelem Gaen]

As nice as that would be, it would make the nobles nothing more than fluff.   (Which would sadden me, even though they're all cannon fodder)  

A better way is that the nobles set a range for the prices to be in, and then the shopkeepers decide which one to go with for themselves.

[numerobis]

quote:Originally posted by Skooma:
<STRONG>I think Toady should move the Dwarven economy away from a controlled economy to a more free market economy. It may not be the easiest thing to code but it would add a lot to the game. It may even be easier to code a few algorithms for it rather than put it on the AI to figure when and why to adjust a price.</STRONG>

It's a bloat item, so it may happen at some point.  I'm not sure that a free market economy is """realistic""" (meaning: historically accurate) -- certainly rulers are big on setting prices and have always been big on it -- but the market has always been somewhat free.  It would be cute to have dwarves thrown in jail for trading on the black market.

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by Skooma:
<STRONG>
The current system is a controlled economy where nobles set prices on a whim where they are disconnected from market forces.
</STRONG>

It's supposed to be a controlled economy.  It's a closed system where the fortress is responsible for making everything the workers need and giving it to them.  The cash economy is purely a rationing system, and the workers don't individually own anything.

The nobles change prices in keeping with Scott Adams' theory of management: since nobody knows what constitutes good management, the best strategy for a manager is to change things at random, and then take credit for anything good that happens.  (If nothing good ever happens, the manager is screwed anyway.)

[Leerok the Lacerta]

I rather like the idea of a free market economy.

It would be interesting to see the prices of inordinately large numbers of roasts or iron, after melting the remains of sieges, become much lower than they currently are, due to excessive supply. This could provide balance to the trading situation. Currently, when I trade, I can use roasts as my entire export, which can be easily worth 300K. The traders might have an inventory that amounts to about 60K. The devaluation of goods supplied in excess seems like it might encourage the player to diversify their exports, if one cares about trade with the outside world.

I can't say I care for prices for the individual dwarves within the fortress, though. I would much rather choose communism for such a small community.

[kuro_suna]

Shop prices are fundamentally pointless at the moment becouse filling the government coffers doesn't accomplish anything.

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by kuro_suna:
<STRONG>Shop prices are fundamentally pointless at the moment becouse filling the government coffers doesn't accomplish anything.</STRONG>

As does emptying it.
"What?  We have no coins?  No problem, we'll issue them credit!"

Reminds me that I did, once, in the 2D version satisfy ALL of the bookkeeper's demand for more coins.  Completely.  He never asked again (I had like 80,000+ of each gold, silver, and copper).

[TrombonistAndrew]

Actually, it shouldn't be too hard to code. All you'd need is a bidding system: dwarves bid on items or rooms being auctioned over a period of time. The selling dwarf (or nobles for selling bedrooms and such) could set a "minimum bid," but otherwise all that's needed to code is to determine whether or not a dwarf wants a particular item being sold, and to bid up to what money the dwarf has on hand.

[Mikademus]

In the real economy shopkeepers set their own prices and consumers figure whether or not they want to pay it (supply and demand). This tug of war continues until the consumer buys the item at the price set (equlibrium price) and the shopkeeper either keeps his price the same or adjusts it to sell more product, compete with another shopkeep etc.

Medieval and enlightenment economics weren't free market economics, thus it would be "unrealistic" or anachronistic if DF had such if your notion of realism means "similar to our world and history".

Secondly, you've either taken an entry-level lesson in economics or simply bought the ideology, because real-life economics doesn't work as or conform to the banale standard theory you outlined.

[i are not good with compu]

It's supposed to be a controlled economy.  It's a closed system where the fortress is responsible for making everything the workers need and giving it to them.  The cash economy is purely a rationing system, and the workers don't individually own anything

No offence, but the communist utopia aspect comes about because that is simply the easiest way to handle trade interaction between multiple units controlled by the same person.  It would only be as it is "supposed to be" if Toady specifically intended Dwarf Fortress to be about communist utopias.

[Granite26]

I think one of the things that is missing is that dwarves can't control what labors they have assigned.  That means that a pure market economy for goods would rapidly become skewed past the point of reason.

Take food, for example.  If you don't have enough farmers, the price of food gets bid up to where only the farmers can afford enough food.

If you have too many farmers (in order to create a surplus), the price of food drops until the farmers can't afford anything else.  Only at the right amount of food production will things be stable, and the market doesn't control that, the player does.

Certainly prices starting to tip would be a good indicator that you needed to change things, but I don't think the market in a 200 dwarf fort has enough resolution for the control necessary (without adjusting dwarven productivity by rewards)

[korora]

In my first post here I laid out what I thought would be necessary to have a functioning free market in DF.  I'm not sure if I still think it would be a good thing -- it requires giving up a lot of player control -- but there's good discussion in that thread.  It might be a good tool to eliminate some micromanagement in the late game (i.e. 150-200+ dwarves).

[TrombonistAndrew]

Try this idea:

Nobles set wages for doing basic labor: hauling, planting, mining, hunting, and other basic skills which in the game mechanics basically make something out of nothing. Free market economics then only applies to crafted goods like clothing, prepared meals, weapons, crafts, etc.

[Pilsu]

The system needs a bigger overhaul than that. Legendaries basically have a warehouse of worthless trinkets they never use. Owning items is irritating as a whole

Personally I dislike the riffraff buying overly expensive goods. Gold, platinum etc goods should be the realm of nobles and perhaps legendaries if they're ever made less mundane

I'd like if it was less random what the people buy, maybe have them ask for stuff for festivities from artisans (ie a minor mandate for silver earrings for Cog's 50th anniversary) and buy a spare set of clothes they sometimes switch around. Though I would think major gifts should automatically turn out as masterworks, what kind of a dwarf would give a lesser gift to anyone? The dwarves could also buy trinkets to wear for festivities and discard them once it's over, this would also get rid of the annoyance of stockpilers. New fancy set of clothing in their favorite color could be asked for for festivities as well, assuming dyes are ever made mixable, widely available and easier to use (guess this would be in the realm of guild perks). Having high quality clothes and jewelry would give variable happy thoughts, having some peasant crank out those purple dresses [7] might even give an unhappy thought. Overall, make the dwarves buy things for a reason instead of just randomly to clutter their rooms with

The years might have to be a bit longer for anyone to bother actually fulfilling such requests though. Makes those new year's parties a bit more tolerable if they don't last until summer

If such a system was implemented, maybe dwarves would arrange funerals and mandate wedding receptions too. I'm rather tired of dwarves deciding to forego an actually important party just because I was trying to avoid regular parties forming randomly. Items could be bought for both occasions, their friends buying them wedding gifts or the friends/lover of the deceased buying something small the dwarf liked to put in his coffin. Might need some tuning or they'll bury the dwarf with ten pairs of masterwork steel boots. Appropriate for a champion to get buried wearing his armor/weapons at the player's discretion but otherwise it'd get frustrating fast. Would probably mean armor is owned however and this'd be a major headache. Then there's the fact of every damn soapmaker being a champion, the player would probably want to arrange the funerals of heroes himself. Bodies would probably also have to stop autostripping when they die


Hmm, seems I got a bit carried away. TL;DR dwarves buy stuff for a reason and eventually throw it away unless it's important like a ☼Wedding Band☼

[Neonivek]

well here is my contribution:

You have Shops (currently in the game)

Then however you have "Free Workshops" and "Connected Workshops"

Free Workshops are workshops that can be owned by any dwarf at any time if he is willing to pay. They can be bought by a shopkeeper if they have enough money

Connected Workshops are workshops are are considered connected to that Shop, so anyone who owns that shop also owns that workshop

After this a shop can have a "Shop Stockpile" which allows the shop to place its inventory in a space (Yes this does mean shops will take up a lot of space)

If a shop has no connected workshops the shopkeeper will become a trader of sorts who will buy up cheap products from carrivans and sell it full price to your dwarves (or another carrivan) later.

If a shop has a workshop then the shopkeeper will buy raw objects from the carrivan, they will also buy your own raw products (and completed) by how much of it you put up for sale.