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[derigo]

I agree.  ;p
Shaostoul, you probably know most or all of this already, but bear with me as I think out loud/share my results and feel free to comment or correct, please!

Ok, so I beat my head against a wall for a while.  Everything about how the dwarfs interact with an object is determined by its <ITEM_TOKEN> (and subtype if thats applicable, which is rarely).  By that I mean, what shop jobs the item can be used it, what stockpiles it goes into, where its listed in the stockpile z-menu, even what icon it uses.  The matglosses just tell you what color it is, what its called, and probably, like its boiling point.  As an example, in one of my many failed attempts I did something like
[PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:COW:BONE]
which resulted in an item called 'cow bone,' which was exciting!  But it looked like a piece of white leather, went in a leather stockpile, and couldn't be used to make bone items.
[PRODUCT:100:1:SKIN_TANNED:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:TURTLE:SHELL]
similarly resulted in a green piece of leather called 'turtle shell'. ;p

So clearly thats the wrong item token.  Flail flail flail as I try various likely item tokens.  The thing about shells and bones is they're actually just creature tissues, literally.  Another example of things like this that we can't make that most people prolly haven't thought of is raw hides.  Raw hides are just skin now, a tissue.  In-game, all of these tissue parts are stored in a "Body Parts" stockpile.  There's no item subtype for bones or shells or skins anymore, they're all lumped together.  The correct item token _should_ be CORPSEPIECES.  The only problem is, it doesn't work. ;p

[PRODUCT:100:1:CORPSEPIECE:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:COW:BONE]  is the logical reaction format.  No dice.

Its a valid item token, no error in the log, but nothing pops out after the reaction.  So its either impossible (meaning Toady hasn't allowed us to do it, yet), or the syntax is completely different from other reactions, or there's some other item token that we're all missing.  Unf.

[Shaostoul]

Well as it goes, I've tried too many to remember varieties for bones/shells. The closest I came was either a vermin that was called turtle, but didn't produce a shell or a set of remains that doesn't rot. I thought maybe I could make a corpse, but that didn't even get any result. I thought maybe CORPSE:CORPSEPIECE might work, but that didn't either. I tried remains and FISH_RAW and pets and whatever else have you. I couldn't figure out how to butcher "tame" vermin. imo...it just doesn't work.

<ITEM>:<ITEM_SUBTYPE>:<MATGLOSS>:<MATGLOSS_SUBTYPE>:<idno what this one is called>

item is more or less what the item is. like a tanned skin or a barrel or door or whatever.

item_subtype can be used for specifying weapons or ammo for example... weapon:item_weapon_pick

matgloss is more or less the main thing it's made out of; creature, wood, metal, stone, etc.

matgloss_subtype is more specific of what the item is: dragon, maple, steel, granite, etc.

the last one seems to been used here and there, but I'm not sure exactly what it is.

[derigo]

Well as it goes, I've tried too many to remember varieties for bones/shells. The closest I came was either a vermin that was called turtle, but didn't produce a shell or a set of remains that doesn't rot. I thought maybe I could make a corpse, but that didn't even get any result. I thought maybe CORPSE:CORPSEPIECE might work, but that didn't either. I tried remains and FISH_RAW and pets and whatever else have you. I couldn't figure out how to butcher "tame" vermin. imo...it just doesn't work.

Right you used something like
:FISH_RAW:NONE:TURTLE:NONE
and it gave you a FISH_RAW called TURTLE.  But it got all of its game properties from some sort of default raw fish, and thus had no shell.  The TURTLE, just made it green and changed its name.  If you use :FISH_RAW:NONE:NONE:NONE, you get a "raw fish" with no icon.  It still gets cleaned properly and everything, it just has no icon, or color, and probably some other characteristics that are less obvious, melting point for instance.

In the same way, you used something like :PET:NONE:TURTLE:NONE and got some sort of default vermin called a "turtle" in the same way.  Its not a turtle, its just called one.

And  same thing for :REMAINS:NONE:TURTLE:NONE. 

I tried using CREATURE_MAT:TURTLE:SHELL but that matgloss format doesn't seem to work for FISH_RAW, or REMAINS. 

And yea, I tried CORPSE:CORPSEPIECE too...  Corpses are their own category of item though.  They're treated completely differently from body parts by the stockpiles.  So I'm convinced the token we want is just CORPSPIECE:NONE, it just doesn't work.  I'm pretty strongly convinced it just isn't possible at the moment.

[Flaede]

Can you create (at the very least) live vermin that aren't tamed? This used to be possible. This might give you at least a better idea of how the syntax is supposed to go.

[derigo]

I didn't try and I sorta deconstructed my testing framework, so I'm not going to, today.  But I imagine the format would look just like your pet reaction, but with VERMIN for the item token.

:VERMIN:NONE:TURTLE:NONE]

if it's possible.

If the creature mat syntax works...try this

:VERMIN:NONE:CREATURE_MAT:TURTLE:ALL]

[Shaostoul]

VERMIN is for untamed vermin. PET produces tamed vermin.

I've tried
VERMIN:NONE:TURTLE:NONE
VERMIN:NONE:TURTLE:TURTLE
VERMIN:TURTLE:TURTLE:TURTLE
VERMIN:TURTLE:NONE:NONE
VERMIN:TURTLE:NONE:TURTLE
VERMIN:TURTLE:TURTLE:NONE
VERMIN:NONE:NONE:TURTLE

All with pet, fish_raw, corpse, remains, corpse_piece, vermin, creature, etc... all with variations of trying to get shell. If I had the full list it'd probably be 60+ tries long.

[darkflagrance]

I just discovered that if you have multiple [CIV_CONTROLLABLE] entities, the game lets you pick.


Sweet!

[Aklyon]

I just discovered that if you have multiple [CIV_CONTROLLABLE] entities, the game lets you pick.


Sweet!

Did anyone immediatly think of making a reverse fortress after that? forcing the elves to cut down trees would be perfect revenge.

[JmzLost]

@shaostoul & derigo : re:turtles

I just tried a few quick reactions.

[PRODUCT:100:1:FISH_RAW:NONE:TURTLE:FEMALE]
  gives a "raw turtle"  which will be processed into "turtle" at the fishery, but no shell.

[PRODUCT:100:1:VERMIN:NONE:TURTLE:FEMALE]
  gives a "live turtle" which will be ignored, and which will run around if you deconstruct the smelter.

You can also replace NONE with TURTLE and both reactions work the same.

Using VERMIN_FISH for the first tag generates an error, guess that's just for use in the creature definitions.

I tried :CREATURE_MAT:TURTLE:FEMALE], and got "small live animal" and "raw fish", so that doesn't work.

I think derigo was right and it's using a raw fish or vermin template that gets the description from turtle, but not the tissues and materials.  Looks like the only way to cheat on shells is to add [SHELL] to hooves, horns, and bones.


On an unrelated note, STONE and BOULDER seem to be somewhat interchangeable, as are METAL and INORGANIC.  That might be where some of the confusion people are having is coming from.

JMZ

[Scribble]

Sorry to derail your thread, but I'm having trouble adding shells to domestic animals, following the wiki guide I changed Cows (and dogs and horses) to the following in both the region save and general raws, but to no effect. Could you tell me what I've done w

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[BODY:QUADRUPED_HOOF:TAIL:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:SHELL:BRAIN:SKULL:MOUTH:GENERIC_TEETH:RIBCAGE:2HEAD_HORN]
   [NATURAL]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS]
      [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:HOOF:HOOF_TEMPLATE]
      [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:HORN:HORN_TEMPLATE]
      [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SHELL:SHELL_TEMPLATE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
      [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:HOOF:HOOF_TEMPLATE]
      [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:HORN:HORN_TEMPLATE]
      [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SHELL:SHELL_TEMPLATE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:FAT:MUSCLE:BONE:CARTILAGE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:BODY_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS:HAIR]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:SHELL_POSITIONS]

[derigo]

@jmz

I tried :CREATURE_MAT:TURTLE:FEMALE], and got "small live animal" and "raw fish", so that doesn't work.

Yes that means the item token you were using doesn't accept CREATURE_MAT as an argument.  So essentially using that syntax is identical to using

FISH_RAW:NONE:NONE:NONE]

I don't know why you thought to use a caste as an argument for a CREATURE_MAT:CREATURE:subtype, although at this point anythng is worth a shot.  In this context that would either select all materials assigned to the FEMALE caste (which is no different than the MALE cast in this sense, at least with 99.9% of all current creatures), or none of the creatures materials, not sure which.

For the record, doing something like :CREATURE_MAT:COW:BONE] _does_ select bone properly for the matgloss.  Whatever you apply it to will be white and called "cow bone".  But its functional properties are all defined by the item token.  Tanned leather that's white and called "cow bone" isn't what we want. ;p  We just need to find the right item token, or the right syntax for one of the item tokens we can't get to work.  ie, the correct reaction for making cow bones should look like

[PRODUCT:100:1:AAAAA:BBBBB:CREATURE_MAT:COW:BONE] 

But we either don't know what AAAAA and BBBBB are supposed to be, or we do, but it doesn't work(I think the right format will, in some later version, be CORPSEPIECE:NONE, or possibly CORPSEPIECE:BONE).

@scribble
I'm not 100% certain but I believe you must remove LEATHER and possibly HAIR from the creature for that to work.  I'm referencing Neon's genesis mod cave tortoise now, he's got       

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS]
      [REMOVE_MATERIAL:SKIN]
      [REMOVE_MATERIAL:LEATHER]
      [REMOVE_MATERIAL:HAIR]
      [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SCALE:SCALE_TEMPLATE]
      [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SHELL:SHELL_TEMPLATE]
   [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
      [REMOVE_TISSUE:SKIN]
      [REMOVE_TISSUE:HAIR]
      [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SCALE:SCALE_TEMPLATE]
      [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:SHELL:SHELL_TEMPLATE]

On the other hand, I've never actually tested the cave tortoise to see if it actually produces shells when it's butchered.

UPDATE:
Tested Neon's cave tortoises, and they do indeed butcher into shells.  Try generating a new world, if you haven't, I'm not sure if you're allowed to add new materials to an existing creature is made out of, or add body parts without either genning a new world, or waiting for more of those creatures to be born/arrive on your map.

If you're desperate for shells for a mood dwarf, just add the [SHELL] token to the MATERIAL_TEMPLATE_HOOF in material_templates_default.txt, and butcher a cow (existing hooves in your stockpile won't be shells, but new freshly butchered hooves will be).

[Scribble]

UPDATE:
Tested Neon's cave tortoises, and they do indeed butcher into shells.  Try generating a new world, if you haven't, I'm not sure if you're allowed to add new materials to an existing creature is made out of, or add body parts without either genning a new world, or waiting for more of those creatures to be born/arrive on your map.

If you're desperate for shells for a mood dwarf, just add the [SHELL] token to the MATERIAL_TEMPLATE_HOOF in material_templates_default.txt, and butcher a cow (existing hooves in your stockpile won't be shells, but new freshly butchered hooves will be).

Many thanks.  I really need to write a to do list before regenning. Though in regards to your last suggestion, neither replacing the [HORN]/[HOOF] token nor simply adding [SHELL] seem to have any effect; in both instances freshly generated horn/hoof remains untouched.

[Flaede]

UPDATE:
Tested Neon's cave tortoises, and they do indeed butcher into shells.  Try generating a new world, if you haven't, I'm not sure if you're allowed to add new materials to an existing creature is made out of, or add body parts without either genning a new world, or waiting for more of those creatures to be born/arrive on your map.

If you're desperate for shells for a mood dwarf, just add the [SHELL] token to the MATERIAL_TEMPLATE_HOOF in material_templates_default.txt, and butcher a cow (existing hooves in your stockpile won't be shells, but new freshly butchered hooves will be).

Many thanks.  I really need to write a to do list before regenning. Though in regards to your last suggestion, neither replacing the [HORN]/[HOOF] token nor simply adding [SHELL] seem to have any effect; in both instances freshly generated horn/hoof remains untouched.

I've been using this to good effect, so I know it works. I did exactly what you describe: In the Material Template Default, I added the SHELL tag to the horn entry. I also added the ITEMS_SCALED tag, so maybe that helped?

[derigo]

Yea, I guarantee it works. ;p 

Make sure you're editing the right raws.  Editing the main raws won't affect your current game in the slightest.

ITEMS_SCALED isn't necessary... in fact I'm not entirely sure what that token does. *shrug*  My raws don't have that, and I can make any shell item out of horn, or hoof.

[JmzLost]

I don't know why you thought to use a caste as an argument for a CREATURE_MAT:CREATURE:subtype, although at this point anythng is worth a shot.  In this context that would either select all materials assigned to the FEMALE caste (which is no different than the MALE cast in this sense, at least with 99.9% of all current creatures), or none of the creatures materials, not sure which.

I seem to remember Toady mentioning that fish and castes have odd interactions, which is why all fish show up twice on the embark screen and in the stocks menu.  I thought I'd try it, just in case.

For the record, doing something like :CREATURE_MAT:COW:BONE] _does_ select bone properly for the matgloss.  Whatever you apply it to will be white and called "cow bone".  But its functional properties are all defined by the item token.  Tanned leather that's white and called "cow bone" isn't what we want. ;p  We just need to find the right item token, or the right syntax for one of the item tokens we can't get to work.  ie, the correct reaction for making cow bones should look like

[PRODUCT:100:1:AAAAA:BBBBB:CREATURE_MAT:COW:BONE] 

But we either don't know what AAAAA and BBBBB are supposed to be, or we do, but it doesn't work(I think the right format will, in some later version, be CORPSEPIECE:NONE, or possibly CORPSEPIECE:BONE).

For clarity, I was trying for whole turtles, not just the shell.  And I didn't really expect any of it to work, but I'd just finished some other messing with the raws and needed to regen anyway.  Just trying to cut down on the number of reactions other people need to try to find the right one, really.  I've never run into the "no turtles" bug myself, but I've heard enough to want a solution (other than adding [SHELL] to hooves). 

JMZ