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[Pilsu]

You can pack a hollow cannonball with gunpowder, stick a fuse in it, and fire it from a cannon (which will light the fuse) - that's an explosive projectile.

Even if you could somehow make the blast start a fire (spoiler, explosions put out fires), it'd set the entire fuse on fire, blowing the thing up inside your own barrel.

I doubt you have the first clue about what you're talking about.

[Dwarfoloid]

Actually, the 18th century howitzers fired shells with fuses, ones that looked like the sterotypical comic book bomb. And the fuses were sometimes intended to be set alight by the blast.

Though even if gunpowder weapons were part of DF, explosive shells are rather off from the thematic time period (solid ball was mainstay until 19th century).

[Squirrelloid]

You can pack a hollow cannonball with gunpowder, stick a fuse in it, and fire it from a cannon (which will light the fuse) - that's an explosive projectile.

Even if you could somehow make the blast start a fire (spoiler, explosions put out fires), it'd set the entire fuse on fire, blowing the thing up inside your own barrel.

I doubt you have the first clue about what you're talking about.

...

From the wikipedia cannon page:

"Innovations continued, notably the German invention of the mortar, a thick-walled, short-barreled gun that blasted shot upward at a steep angle. Mortars were useful for sieges, as they could fire over walls and other defenses.[55] This cannon found more use with the Dutch, who learned to shoot bombs filled with powder from them. However, setting the bomb fuse in the mortar was a problem. "Single firing" was the first technique used to set the fuse, where the bomb was placed with the fuse down against the propelling charge. This practice often resulted in the fuse being blown into the bomb, causing it to blow up in front of the mortar. Because of this danger, "double firing" was developed, where the fuse was turned up and the gunner lighted the fuse and the touch hole simultaneously. This, however, required much skill and timing, and was especially dangerous when the gun failed to fire, leaving a lighted bomb in the barrel. Not until 1650 was it accidentally discovered that double-lighting was a superfluous process: the heat of firing was enough to light the fuse."

Before impinging someone else's knowledge, try doing a little bit of research.  I mean, if its on a wikipedia page about the immediate subject, its sort of inexcusable not to have checked.

Now, certainly this discovery is beyond the strict DF time period, but they did try other things getting to it before 1650, and its something dwarves might just discover because they are dwarves.  My impression was that single-firing was tried not too long after 1400, but I'd have to track down a source.  Certainly this article gives the impression of it taking quite a long time to discover that the heat of firing would light the fuse.

Dwarfoloid: 1650 is quite a bit before 19th century, and that's after some time of trying other lighting methods.

[Dwarfoloid]

Dwarfoloid: 1650 is quite a bit before 19th century, and that's after some time of trying other lighting methods.

Mainstay being the key word here. While howitzers were used in field battles during Napolonic period, they were still being outnumbered by solid ball cannons by around 3 to 1. Russians propably had greater ration of explosive shell guns, as they used the experimenatlish flat trajectory licorne howitzers.

[Squirrelloid]

Dwarfoloid: 1650 is quite a bit before 19th century, and that's after some time of trying other lighting methods.

Mainstay being the key word here. While howitzers were used in field battles during Napolonic period, they were still being outnumbered by solid ball cannons by around 3 to 1. Russians propably had greater ration of explosive shell guns, as they used the experimenatlish flat trajectory licorne howitzers.

Well, solid-ball cannons could also fire grapeshot, which is horribly effective.

Arguably, the place for explosive shells is sieges, not field battles.  Firing in a trajectory is at a disadvantage because you can direct fire at infantry, which requires a less skilled gunner.  Having walls in the way makes the ability to fire over them a big advantage.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I actually think the biggest problem with siege engines right now is how they're fired- I'd make them more like traps, triggered by lever or pressure plate, after dwarves load them up. It certainly makes sense- if you can open or close a door, you can certainly pull a trigger- and it will make the system work better, as siege operators (civilians) will no longer iterrupt fire to flee from enemies.

[Hyndis]

I actually think the biggest problem with siege engines right now is how they're fired- I'd make them more like traps, triggered by lever or pressure plate, after dwarves load them up. It certainly makes sense- if you can open or close a door, you can certainly pull a trigger- and it will make the system work better, as siege operators (civilians) will no longer iterrupt fire to flee from enemies.

Either that, or let military dwarves use them so they don't run away.

Siege engine operation is much more of a military profession than a civilian profession.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

*Nods*

Though, actually, I was thinking of grapeshot, if we ever do get cannons... would certainly be fun to include, and actually give cannons a point above ballistas, but it would never work if it were fired by civilians.

[Pilsu]

Before impinging someone else's knowledge, try doing a little bit of research.  I mean, if its on a wikipedia page about the immediate subject, its sort of inexcusable not to have checked.

I did check around actually, I just didn't read that section since it was way out of the time period and had nothing to do with cannons. Well, technically a mortar is a cannon I suppose but that is not the kind of cannon he was talking about.

The fuse thing was a surprise. I guess the wax coating makes the difference.

Looking at the problems, including another from a civil war article (powder inside the ball lit up directly) and the time periods involved, it seems it would not be included either way.



I'm rather baffled by your attempt of sneaking in tech 250 years out of the time period just because they're dwarves. What? "They can break the rules since they're dwarves" makes no sense to begin with, even less so when you consider you're suggesting that a civilization that digs their forts underground should gain a mastery of mortars of all things.

They're already thousands of years ahead of the humans on the virtue of being dwarven, they don't need more.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

They're already thousands of years ahead of the humans on the virtue of being dwarven, they don't need more.

Seeing as Toady has stated "1400s" as the rough time period, I somewhat doubt they're actually "thousands" of years ahead.

Also? Fantasy universe. The key element here is atmosphere, not realism.

[Squirrelloid]

I'm rather baffled by your attempt of sneaking in tech 250 years out of the time period just because they're dwarves. What? "They can break the rules since they're dwarves" makes no sense to begin with, even less so when you consider you're suggesting that a civilization that digs their forts underground should gain a mastery of mortars of all things.

The first mortar dates to mid-late 15th century, so that is '1400s'.  This would have involved single-fire 'bombs', and progressed to double-fire reasonably quickly.  It then took something like 200 years before someone discovered heat would light the fuse on its own. 

As the last discovery is totally accidental, its not like its a technological innovation.  Ie, its not technologically beyond other methods of lighting a mortar bomb.  But heck, single-fire or double-fire would be cool too.  Heck, the difference in single vs. double fire isn't technological either, its trading off which possible mishap is more acceptable.  As 'heat lights the fuse' is basically just double-fire but forgetting to light the bomb's fuse, any culture that used mortars for sufficiently long would figure it out.  So, since the technological period is always 1400s, dwarves firing mortars for 1000 years are going to figure out that the heat will light the fuse even when they forget.

[Lord Shonus]

Actually, mortars (under a different name) were used in Europe in the late 1200s. Every experiment with exploding shells, however, failed, because all too often the ball would stick in the barrel. A solid ball was easily extracted, but a shell with a primed fuse would kill the whole crew, which happened far too often anyway because they refused to follow the directions when making powder.

[Starver]

You can pack a hollow cannonball with gunpowder, stick a fuse in it, and fire it from a cannon (which will light the fuse) - that's an explosive projectile.

Yup, and when done right the impact causes the lit part of the fuse to meet the powder for immediate detonation, regardless of the length still to burn (or you can shorten it for an air-burst effect) but I betya they took quite a few attempts to cast the right thickness and design of cannon shell (literally) to get that working without blowing up their own guns on firing.

Now, with catapult-alike methods, all you have to worry about is mis-throws (especially as one trebuchet failure mode slings the projectile back into the attacker's ranks!), and otherwise it's a far more comfortable delivery system with the only flame in the vicinity being from the lad lighting the darn thing (and then make darn sure the launcher works, or get ready to pull the fuse out if the mechanism jams...

[Evil One]

Instead of cannons, I propose that toady allows us to load whatever or whoever we want into catapults (make it like the dump/melt tag you just select an object or creature and set it to be loadable) that way we can launch volleys of cats, dogs, goblins, logs, vomit, GCS (even worse for the attackers if they survive the landing), and/or anything else we can think of.

[Pilsu]

Humans don't even have steel, wiggling giant mechas the time period past the stated limit for dwarves isn't exactly conducive to a good setting. Dwarves, not having something as simple as cavalry, could certainly use powerful static defenses. A simple cannon is alright but mortars don't make flavor or time period sense.

What's this alternative name then Shonus?