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[G-Flex]

Good and bad articles could, for instance, be presented on the Forum, and then analyzed and deconstructed, in much the same manner as ThreeToe's stories.

This is much better done on the centralized wiki discussion.

And people on the Forum who know a lot about a subject could be encouraged to write articles. For that matter, there's a great deal of information that's already here, that never shows up in the Wiki.

I'm not saying that people should never talk about the wiki on the forums, just that the best place for wiki discussion is, in most cases, on the wiki itself. Yes, it can be constructive to talk about the wiki here, but that talk should, when applicable, be brought to the wiki proper.

I think it's pretty clear from this thread, that part of the reason the quality levels of the Wiki are down so low is because whoever's running the Wiki is/are just a little bit out of touch with the rest of the community.

You mean Locriani, who's posted here personally several times? Also, there's a difference between running it and editing it, but even if you're talking about editors, the editors being out-of-touch because they don't go to the forums (which is a really, really insular thing to say; why are they somehow necessarily more in-touch than the people on the official IRC, or any other DF-related community?) won't be solved by moving wiki discussion to the forums. Hell, it doesn't even make sense to do so.

It would only help everybody involved, to increase the ties between Wiki and Forum.

The wiki linking to the forum and the forum linking to the wiki should be all that is necessary here. There is no reason to give the forum some sort of special treatment by having wiki discussion take place here instead of on the pages specifically designed for this on the wiki. Hell, if wiki discussion didn't happen on the wiki, then wiki editors who don't go to the forums will be far more out of touch than they are now, because they won't be participating in discussion, or even seeing it.


The forum isn't being "left out in the cold" any more than anybody else is. You seriously cannot equate "wiki discussion takes place on the wiki" with "the forum is being discriminated against and left in the cold".

[Footkerchief]

I think it's pretty clear from this thread, that part of the reason the quality levels of the Wiki are down so low is because whoever's running the Wiki is/are just a little bit out of touch with the rest of the community.

You mean Locriani, who's posted here personally several times?

Dozens of posts in the last couple months, mostly seeking feedback from forum users about the ongoing changes at the wiki.  Like in this thread.  Out of touch is the last thing the wiki admins are -- there's no lack of communication between the wiki and the forum.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Certainly doesn't seem like it from the quality levels, from so much confusion about what's going on with the Wiki, or particularly from the reactionary views of the "participating" admins, in this thread.

[G-Flex]

The 2010 namespace sucks right now because it's only been around for like, a month. Seriously. Consider how long it took for the previous version to get where it was, and that still had a lot of leftover crap from the 2D days that nobody ended up currently.

What reactionary views from the admins, though? I'm curious.

[Draco18s]

The 2010 namespace sucks right now because it's only been around for like, a month. Seriously. Consider how long it took for the previous version to get where it was, and that still had a lot of leftover crap from the 2D days that nobody ended up currently.

Considering I updated the Quality page to include a GIANT chunk of information I knew was correct, or at least mostly correct,* it was reverted because "all of this is already on the 40d page."

*I put in all of 4 verify tags on stuff I wasn't sure about but was confident it was at least partially true, commented out or deleted stuff I really wasn't sure about.

[SirHoneyBadger]

The 2010 namespace sucks right now because it's only been around for like, a month. Seriously. Consider how long it took for the previous version to get where it was, and that still had a lot of leftover crap from the 2D days that nobody ended up currently.

What reactionary views from the admins, though? I'm curious.

Well, to set things off on the right foot: Is there anywhere at all on the Wiki that actually states who is, and who isn't, a DF Admin? Other than Briess, who's the only one listed on the "About Dwarf Fortress Wiki" page.

When the Admins won't even tell you who they are--that in itself should be something of an indication that there's a disconnectedness with any larger community.

Locriani's been quite nice and level-headed. There's no indication on atleast the main page of the DF Wiki that he/she is anything to anyone, however. Others--and I'd rather not name names, unless they turn out to actually be admins--have been less than calm, understanding, or helpful.

Which should be clear to anyone who actually bothers to read the thread.

Frankly, it's extremely frustrating and exhausting to constantly have to refer to things which have already been written, 6 pages back in a thread. It's a waste of time which only helps people who consistently can't be bothered to read what anyone other than themselves has written.

If you're so "curious", then start with my first post, put yourself in my perspective, and go from there.

[Locriani]

The wiki administrator's list says:
(http://df.magmawiki.com/DF:Administrators)
"A list of administrators is available here"

and the list shows:

Aescula ‎(Administrator, Check user) (Created on December 27, 2009 at 22:52)
Albedo ‎(Administrator, Check user) (Created on March 22, 2009 at 19:04)
Briess ‎(Administrator, Bureaucrat, Check user) (Created on September 15, 2009 at 10:52)
Emi ‎(Administrator, Check user, Bureaucrat) (Created on March 11, 2010 at 14:32)
Mason11987 ‎(Administrator, Check user) (Created on January 24, 2010 at 15:53)
Savok ‎(Administrator) (Created on October 29, 2007 at 14:57)
Senso ‎(Administrator, Bureaucrat)


Source: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=sysop#ixzz0nf69caNK

I am Briess. Briess is Locriani.  Locriani is Briess, is myself.  In the wiki related threads, I have seen Albedo, myself, Mason, and Emi all participate.

Hopefully that clears up who is and who is not an administrator on the wiki.

[Draco18s]

Source: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=sysop#ixzz0nf69caNK

Funny, I have no idea how you managed to find that link.  Because it's sure not available anywhere on the main page, nor easily accessible via search.

[SirHoneyBadger]

And it's also a broken link... 

[Footkerchief]

Well, to set things off on the right foot: Is there anywhere at all on the Wiki that actually states who is, and who isn't, a DF Admin? Other than Briess, who's the only one listed on the "About Dwarf Fortress Wiki" page.

When the Admins won't even tell you who they are--that in itself should be something of an indication that there's a disconnectedness with any larger community.

Site Announcements -> Centralized Discussion -> Administration

Locriani's been quite nice and level-headed. There's no indication on atleast the main page of the DF Wiki that he/she is anything to anyone, however.

Locriani, a.k.a. Briess, has a user page and a talk page like everyone else.  They're not going to toot their own horns on the main page.

Which should be clear to anyone who actually bothers to read the thread.

Frankly, it's extremely frustrating and exhausting to constantly have to refer to things which have already been written, 6 pages back in a thread. It's a waste of time which only helps people who consistently can't be bothered to read what anyone other than themselves has written.

If you're so "curious", then start with my first post, put yourself in my perspective, and go from there.

Just link/quote the post you're talking about.  Much easier than talking about how exhausting it is.

[Locriani]

The 2010 namespace sucks right now because it's only been around for like, a month. Seriously. Consider how long it took for the previous version to get where it was, and that still had a lot of leftover crap from the 2D days that nobody ended up currently.

Considering I updated the Quality page to include a GIANT chunk of information I knew was correct, or at least mostly correct,* it was reverted because "all of this is already on the 40d page."

*I put in all of 4 verify tags on stuff I wasn't sure about but was confident it was at least partially true, commented out or deleted stuff I really wasn't sure about.

It's easy to become reactionary to changes that are copied and pasted (or appear to be done so) since so many people have, in fact, simply copy and pasted articles over to df2010 that have no bearing on the current state of the game.  As such, it's easy to quickly browse through a change and hit revert.

If this has happened to an edit you're sure is correct and factual, just leave a message on either my talk page, the person who reverted it's talk page, or any other administrator's talk page.  Someone will look into it.

[Locriani]

Source: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=sysop#ixzz0nf69caNK

Funny, I have no idea how you managed to find that link.  Because it's sure not available anywhere on the main page, nor easily accessible via search.

Special Pages -> User list -> change settings to Sysops.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I do have to complain about it. It's a waste of my time, and for what? To prove that what's already there, was actually written, to people who weren't paying attention in the first place?

Footkerchief: You for one, of anybody on these Forums, should have some conception of how it feels to have to repeat information.

And the statement about them "tooting their own horns" is patently ridiculous. They're admins. As in, a governing and administrating body that is supposed to be held atleast somewhat accountable.

That's like saying your doctor or your professor or your state senator won't tell you their name because they don't want to toot their own horn. Can you even concieve of the reaction to something like that?

[G-Flex]

Source: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=sysop#ixzz0nf69caNK

Funny, I have no idea how you managed to find that link.  Because it's sure not available anywhere on the main page, nor easily accessible via search.

Special Pages -> User list -> change settings to Sysops.

To be fair, a lot of people just wouldn't think to look there. I'm not sure what a good alternative would be, but for a small community-oriented wiki like this one, I guess it makes sense for that to be more obvious/visible.

I doubt that the admins aren't listed on the main page by design, it's probably just because it hasn't really been considered much, or nobody considered it very important to do so.

[Locriani]

I do have to complain about it. It's a waste of my time, and for what? To prove that what's already there, was actually written, to people who weren't paying attention in the first place?

Footkerchief: You for one, of anybody on these Forums, should have some conception of how it feels to have to repeat information.

And the statement about them "tooting their own horns" is patently ridiculous. They're admins. As in, a governing and administrating body that is supposed to be held atleast somewhat accountable.

That's like saying your doctor or your professor or your state senator won't tell you their name because they don't want to toot their own horn. Can you even concieve of the reaction to something like that?

Your issues are issues with the wiki software.  The links to admins are where the mediawiki software puts them, and a few other places.  We're going to improve on this for magmawiki, but the claim that we're not making it obvious who were are is patently ridiculous.  If you feel that the information isn't available enough, then feel free to add it to the wiki - there's a reason it's a collaborative platform.  Unfortunately, we don't have brains that can encompass and figure out every possibility of interface design that users desire, including contacting administrators.  Prior to this discussion, I would have claimed it was easy and simple to figure out who is an administrator--which is obviously a case of my adapting to the terrible mediawiki interface.

[edit] this was written while I am on the phone with an investor, so I'm a little harried and it probably has all kinds of grammatical and tonal mistakes.  It's not meant to be condescending or insulting or anything at all, I just have other distractions to deal with at the moment.