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[DonerKebab]

The difficulty in the old DF was the interface.  The difficulty in the new DF is the interface AND the bugs.  I care about the game and want it to be successful and relevant.  It won't be at this rate.  I'm not angry at all, just disappointed.

[Arathanar]

I'm not going to RAGE at you like some of the others in this thread, but:

Unless you personally donated to Toady, be happy that, in a month or two, you'll have a new version of DF that is stable and has new features. If you don't like playing an unstable game, just pretend the new version came out then.

However, if you are a MAN and rated M FOR MANLY, you will play the buggy version, because bugs are features. Being part of the fixing process is what you're supposed to do. This game is in ALPHA.

[Hondo]

And this game was also an alpha a year and a half ago when it was functional. That's always been a terrible rationalization.

[DFPongo]

Not casting stones cause I have not even tried the new version. But anyone complaining about this cant read.
Must have thought toady was joking or something. When that many fundamental things change in such a complex intricate game, it has big impacts. Best way to find them is to release it with full disclosure to willing testers. If your not a willing tester, tap out till its finished enough for your tastes.

[Rollory]

Ok, this thread is sounding exactly like the forums for every single bad beta test I've ever been in.  "WTF this sucks what were the devs thinking putting it up like this" "IT'S JUST A BETAAAAAAA IT'LL GET BETTERRRRRRR" and then it doesn't because the beta tests actually do usually turn out to be pretty close to the final product and all the "just wait it'll get better" people slink away never to be heard from again.

For my part, I can see how the military improvements could be better than the previous system, but it also overcomplexifies things.  Sometimes you just want a woodcutter to take his axe and go smack some beasties who are scaring the fisherdwarves, without going through all sorts of paperwork involving who's allowed what equipment beforehand.  Until that becomes possible, it's more of a hindrance than a help.  I don't WANT to have to set up training sessions and barracks  and duty rosters and so on, I just want "You, you, and you, grab a weapon and go stand guard there until I tell you otherwise".  The current military interface completely gets in the way.  It makes difficult what should be easy.  Until that's resolved, it's a problem.

The caverns and so on are a net plus but it wouldn't have taken that much to add them to 40d.  The materials and layers system, I have not seen any evidence at all that it was worth all the time.  Lots of really odd bug reports and claims that it's just that the raws aren't set up right yet, but until I actually see results where the raws are set up correctly and it works right, I'm reserving judgement.  40d worked fine in that regard.  To the point where I've been wondering to myself what it would take to do a rollback to 40d's system and just tack on the caverns.

In short, it's not at all clear that this IS the right track for the game in terms of fun and functionality.  And yes Toady will do whatever the heck he wants with it.  But open discussion of the issues people have can only clarify the situation.

[Sorcerer]

.

I don't WANT to have to set up training sessions and barracks  and duty rosters and so on, I just want "You, you, and you, grab a weapon and go stand guard there until I tell you otherwise".

m -> create new squad with woodcutter in it.
s, a, k
disband afterwards as necessary
there you go.

sure its a few more keyclicks than before, but with the added functionality, its worth it.

I would start a long rant on the people that complain that their free alpha game is buggy, but i just can't be arsed. Don't like the bugs, go play 0.28 instead while toady fixes the new stuff.

[DarthCloakedDwarf]

Ok, this thread is sounding exactly like the forums for every single bad beta test I've ever been in.  "WTF this sucks what were the devs thinking putting it up like this" "IT'S JUST A BETAAAAAAA IT'LL GET BETTERRRRRRR" and then it doesn't because the beta tests actually do usually turn out to be pretty close to the final product and all the "just wait it'll get better" people slink away never to be heard from again.

It's odd seeing your registry date being from 2006. I'm honestly shocked that you are blind to all the improvements since the old versions of those days.

[LemonFrosted]

I agree with some of the sentiment in here, though to be a bit more complex: I do want the insanely detailed military mechanics (once they're behaving themselves) but I also want some method for quickly telling whoever's nearby to grab something and stab that stupid panicked herbivore that wandered into the base, or rapidly assembling a last-ditch "everyone try and kill it."

Personally after two furious weeks of non-stop dwarfing I'm taking a bit of a break to wait for a less-buggy military (since that's where all my forts have failed dramatically this version). Of course given how much fu(n)stration I was having coming up with the perfect starting progression this break has as much to do with burnout (my spring break started the same day .31 came out, so I did go at it pretty hardcore) and getting caught up on other games as it does the sense of hopelessness that fills me when I think of my next glorious fort of near-optimum efficiency being cut down by 5 goblins while I'm in the middle of installing my luxury party room with 20 z-level decorative waterfall (plus extraction system).

[GRead]

Ok, this thread is sounding exactly like the forums for every single bad beta test I've ever been in.  "WTF this sucks what were the devs thinking putting it up like this" "IT'S JUST A BETAAAAAAA IT'LL GET BETTERRRRRRR" and then it doesn't because the beta tests actually do usually turn out to be pretty close to the final product and all the "just wait it'll get better" people slink away never to be heard from again.

This is because when a games company runs an open beta test the product generally IS almost exactly as it will be at release. Beta tests exist to stress test servers and root out bugs, not add new features. DF is still an alpha; it is still missing large portions of gameplay and is not yet in a feature lock.

I actually like the new military, for the most part. Aside from them, you know, *not doing what I tell them to*, I really like it. So once those bugs are hammered out it should be great. It could definitely benefit from some sort of simple 'draft' command that amounts to telling the woodcutter 'take your axe and kill those goddamn monkeys' without fussing with his weapon settings, but most of the problems I have with the military are attributable to bugs rather than design.

The materials system is rather cool from an academic standpoint. It's not immediately apparent its practical impact, but it enables more changes down the road, as well as a few that are currently in, such as poisons and health care.

[Lord Darkstar]

I can understand the frustration in this thread. I very seriously understand it. The miltiary changes makes defending your fortress more difficult. I can see where it is going, and it looks like it should be pretty darn impressive when done. But at the moment? It is a lot of extra hassle for what seems like little to no actual gain. Sure, I can get very specific in the uniform design, but in the "building a starting fortress" phase, it just gets in the way.

And there's a few other changes that aren't so nice. Like the change in channelling, which took away more functionality than it added.

Mind you, I love DF, and I've given money in the past, and I will again in the future it is an AWESOME game, bugs and warts and all. But I worry about how tall and steep the learning curve continues to grow for new users. How is this game going to properly grown in popularity if it just gets harder and harder to get started with it?

[NikkTheTrick]

Toady had clearly stated that DF2010 will be buggy upon the release. The game is in a semi-playable state and is not claimed to be a stable release (compared to DF2008). A lot of new and complex features have been introduced. That had inevitably messed things up: you just can't expect making such changes and have everything work. Now, with masses playing and finding out bugs and other problems, those issues will be ironed out and the game will get into a stable form.

When next major release comes, things will get unstable again because new features will mess things up. It will then be ironed out. If you don't want a buggy version, do not play a major release until it is ironed out. Wait a bit until it is improved.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

While the bug surrounding cleaning is thwarting my plans for surface fortresses, I am quite happy with the release.

One thing I wanted to point out, that while I haven't checked with goblin siegers yet, weapon traps with metal blades seem to be doing a good job and the high amount of ores on your average map makes it relatively easy to create them and/or trade for the metals you want to use if you don't have the right ones. So, it is not completely hopeless, I think.

Deathworks

[Mungrul]

I can deal with certain bugs, and now I've gotten used to the military interface, I can see it's a huge improvement, but every single one of my DF2010 fortresses so far have died because of indestructible forgotten beasts.
It was funny the first couple of times, but now seeing an otherwise perfectly functioning fortress fall foul of a de-limbed vomit/gem/metal monster that bumps everyone to death is getting a little tiring. And unfortunately, magma is so hard to utilise effectively now, these monsters usually appear before I've managed to implement it.
That's the only thing that's putting a downer on my experience, but it isn't stopping me playing

[Geti]

Was so gret bout dis "magmar" thing annyweys?[/derp]
Have you considered just walling the bitch in and using a cave-in to deal with it?

I'm liking the new military for everything except quick recruitment, but that's fine. I just have to get a decent squad set up early on, rather than using wood cutters or miners to do away with those overconfident, bent friends of ours, or to coax some elves into bestowing their wood on me. I think the new version is way more fun, in any case. A key miner dying of infection after an unexpected channelling mishap can require a pretty large rethink of who does what in a small fortress (my favorite kind)

[AncientEnemy]

the only major problem i have with this update is the military. it is probably the largest change in the update (not just an addition but a complete revamping of an existing feature) and it doesn't seem like it was tested whatsoever. I know toady is just one guy and doesn't have a team to extensively examine and route out every bug, but it's virtually impossible to set up a military and not run into the bugs unless you very deliberately use workarounds from the getgo (and basically avoid using most of the features of the new system). I don't see how you miss such glaring flaws in a brand new system, which presumably you would have to be testing as you went. it's very understandable missing a bug that only shows up in certain specific situations, under the right moon, like acid rain. but "the military pretty much never functions correctly when set up without deliberate workarounds" is a different animal.

bugs aside, I just feel like the new military system was a waste of time. I don't think I ever looked at my military in 40d and went "god, I wish I could make them patrol certain routes at certain times of the year!". The things I did wish they would do still aren't in (like not littering the barracks with their clothing). The new system seems by and large superfluous (one of those 'wouldn't it be neat if...' ideas that you are supposed to realize aren't worth taking the time to do), and might just end up getting replaced again when cleaning up the interface becomes a priority (in fact I hope it does at this point).

and it really doesn't make sense in some places. particularly the arsenal dwarf. in theory it sounds like a cool idea. and then you realize that the only effect it has is inconveniencing the player for no discernible reason. having a 'manager' type system would be cool if you gained something by it. like having a manager for workshop jobs lets you set up work orders. but imagine if you now needed a manager to queue any workshop job. it's an unnecessary roadblock and it isn't fun or Fun. no fantasy tale tells the story of a kingdom that fell because the soldiers decided they needed a quartermaster's permission before picking up their swords to fight the enemy.

in short, I wish the military had been expanded upon instead of outright replaced. like you start with a simple system, either the old one or something very similar, and then were able to add on complexity through a noble (militia commander/arsenal dwarf) the same way you can with workshops through a manager. when and if you wanted to.