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Author Topic: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall  (Read 2865 times)

Avelon

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Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« on: April 19, 2010, 05:16:51 am »

I'm somewhat inept in the department of advanced dwarven physics, and woefully underexperienced with pump mechanisms. I'm in a map with no running water but several murky pools. I'm wondering how I might go around, after building and filling a giant cistern, creating a waterfall that will fall through a part of my fortress (I can adapt a design once I understand it, so the exact location doesn't matter) and then be pumped back up into the cistern with minimal power. I DO have access to magma in tube form all the way up to the surface (the top is 5 or so z-levels from the surface itself but it is an open volcano) if that can be used to power the pumps somehow.

Can anyone give me some ideas for how I might go about this? I hopefully don't need diagrams (key word: hopefully), so don't go posting 20 sections of code trying to help me. Though if the pumping mechanism is particularly complicated I might have to ask for an example. Please, O Great Architects, render unto my short beard the knowledge!
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AncientEnemy

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2010, 05:22:34 am »

magma can't be used to generate power. you can set up a perpetual motion machine, where waterwheels are powered by the water that's being moved by the pumps that the waterwheels are operating (2nd law of thermodynamics be damned). but the easiest power source would probably be windmills, provided your map has wind (only way i know of to check is simply build a windmill on the surface and see if it operates).

as for getting an enclosed waterfall, the easiest way would be a pump tower. you stack pumps on top of eachother, each one facing the opposite direction of the one below it. the top pump dumps the water over the edge where you want your waterfall, the bottommost one draws from a cistern at the bottom. http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Pump_tower#Pump_Stack has a description, and some illustrations.

Avelon

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2010, 05:27:00 am »

Thanks for the tip! I'm not sure how to utilize power, honestly, having only ever used screw pumps (and then only to move magma at a faster rate into my magma storage tank). I'll peruse the wiki for that, though.

If anyone wants to plot a design just for kicks, feel free. =) I'll see what I can do with the knowledge I have and no more than 15 minutes spent browsing the wiki. I'll post the results of this for Fun.
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AncientEnemy

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2010, 05:40:36 am »

here's a doodle of the setup I was thinking of, side view:



G's being gear assemblies, brown lines being axles, thick black lines being floors, and those widgets at the top the windmills. guess what the blue stuff is.

you may need more windmills, i forget offhand how much power they produce (i think it can also be more or less depending on how windy the site you're at is). shouldn't be difficult to expand that design to accomodate a taller waterfall. and if you wanted it deeper underground, just use vertical axles to get the power from the central gear assembly down to the top pump.

you may have to refill it from time to time, either if you're in a particularly hot area (water will slowly evaporate) or if it splashes out of the cistern (probably won't be an issue since alot of the water will be tied up in the pump tower at any given time, so the cistern wont be full while it's running). either way it's easy to replenish with an occasional bucket brigade to a pond zone at the bottom if it starts to dry out after awhile.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 05:44:28 am by AncientEnemy »
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Avelon

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2010, 05:46:59 am »

Sorry for double post, but this is a separate question in the same vein.

I see nothing on the wiki to imply that water flowing through a channel cannot power a water wheel; only that falling water and flowing magma do not power it. But it does imply that these don't qualify as 'flowing water' in the Dwarven sense. So my question is...is it possible to have an artificially flowing river power part or all of this fake waterfall?

---

here's a doodle of the setup I was thinking of, side view:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

you may need more windmills, i forget offhand how much power they produce (i think it can also be more or less depending on how windy the site you're at is). shouldn't be difficult to expand that design to accomodate a taller waterfall. and if you wanted it deeper underground, just use vertical axles to get the power from the central gear assembly down to the top pump.

*checks time.* Good, my time isn't up.
According to the Wiki, windmills provide:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That's a nice little doodle. Very easy to understand, too. So to make this a waterfall that you'd walk under (which is of course the point, can't have my dwarves running around stinking all the time), all you need to do is include floor grates in the design, yeah? It seems like the pumps can pull through them.

One more question and I think I should be good to go (or at least start): How much water loss can I expect here, since this IS a finite water source? Does mist cause evaporation underground?
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TigerPlushie

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2010, 05:59:01 am »

One more question and I think I should be good to go (or at least start): How much water loss can I expect here, since this IS a finite water source? Does mist cause evaporation underground?

Not quite, but I have HEARD, that there are oddities with pumped water, that let you end up with more water than you previously had. The wiki stated that.
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AncientEnemy

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2010, 06:03:24 am »

I see nothing on the wiki to imply that water flowing through a channel cannot power a water wheel; only that falling water and flowing magma do not power it. But it does imply that these don't qualify as 'flowing water' in the Dwarven sense. So my question is...is it possible to have an artificially flowing river power part or all of this fake waterfall?
yeah, that's what I was getting at with the perpetual motion machine. you can make a setup where you have a pump(or pumps) moving water around a loop, with a waterwheel over that moving water, connected to the pump. you have a dwarf operate the pump manually to start the process, and then the waterwheel becomes powered and starts operating the pump. defies the laws of physics but works in DF. I haven't set one of these up myself, since they're kinda cheat-y in my opinion, but search around, someone probably has a diagram
Quote
That's a nice little doodle. Very easy to understand, too. So to make this a waterfall that you'd walk under (which is of course the point, can't have my dwarves running around stinking all the time), all you need to do is include floor grates in the design, yeah? It seems like the pumps can pull through them.
you could do that, but dwarves wont voluntarily walk through it, they'll just occasionally get accidentally doused. also, getting covered in water, despite all logic, wont clean a dwarf off. and last, you'll end up with alot of 'urist mcdorf cancels job: dangerous terrain' message spam. all the happy thoughts associated with waterfalls are by a dwarf walking through the mist falling water generates, which will radiate outwards from the falling water.
Quote
One more question and I think I should be good to go (or at least start): How much water loss can I expect here, since this IS a finite water source? Does mist cause evaporation underground?

assuming it's built with a large enough cistern (lets say, count up the tiles the water will occupy that -aren't- part of the cistern, then double that for the size of the cistern. so if the waterfall is going to travel upwards 6 levels, give it a 4x3 cistern (depth is irrelevant for the cistern, only the length/width matter because the bottommost pump is only going to pull water out of the top level of the cistern). don't go too big with the cistern, as you want it to be maybe half-empty while the pump is in operation to avoid splashing), and you aren't in a hot climate, almost no evaporation will occur. if it is a hot climate or you experiencing mild splashing, you might have to refill it every couple seasons. mist does not contribute to evaporation

AncientEnemy

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2010, 06:07:12 am »

oh, one last thing i forgot in my doodle: make sure the very top of the waterfall is completely surrounded by walls, with a hole in the floor being the only place the water can exit. if it just flows over an edge, it might lead to water spreading further outward than you want.

like this (pretend that top wall goes all the way around the front of the pump)

forgot i had this image heh

[edit] oh damnit, this isn't quite applicable to your waterfall, yours would have a floor where the one in the image is outputting. but you get the idea right? surround the tile where the water is supposed to start falling with walls, so it can't go anywhere but down.

[double-edit]
Quote
so if the waterfall is going to travel upwards 6 levels, give it a 4x3 cistern
did my math wrong here: that would be ~12 tiles of water-not-in-cistern (6 on the way up, 6 on the way down) so you'd want a ~24 tile cistern (5x5 or so)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 06:18:04 am by AncientEnemy »
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Avelon

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2010, 06:39:06 am »

The answer to life, the universe, and dwarven physics.
Thanks very much. I understand the 'shower head' concept, yeah. =) I'll make sure it's a box with a grated floor.

The happy thoughts are caused by mist, then... So that's my goal. I think I'll make this a 3x3 grate in the center of a 5x wide hallway, so dorfs can go around no matter what, with water falling, we'll say...8 z-levels?...on to the grate to hopefully create mist. Under the grate is the cistern, and the pumps will be embedded in the wall connected to an adjoining "maintenance" room (which will usually be a forbidden door to prevent pets which will always remain unlocked) that will have access to each of the pumps...which I'll need in order to build this anyway.
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Hydra

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 07:00:38 am »

Few think to keep in mind when experimenting with fluids:

- Water moves FAST! Make sure you connect a lever to one of the gear assemblies that is situated somewhere where the water can't go so you can shut it off.
- Pumps seem to somehow generate small amounts of water. With closed-loop system you really want an overflow. Just carve a tunnel to the edge of the map and smooth it and carve fortifications (you can't mine the edge but you can open it up with a fortification) and you'll have an overflow.
- Water is pressurized. It can move up to the level your pump's exit is at. So a mistake tends to result in fun where you flood your entire fort :)

I had a mistake once where I made a nice watertower to supply my drowning trap. The tower itself got fed by a dual pumpstack pumping water from an aquifer (which have more or less unlimited water feeds). When I engages the trap the watertower emptied nicely into the trap. However, it kept feeding water into the trap when it should have been 'full' (I calculated the water tower's contents to be enough to fill the entire trap in seconds). Guess what: forgot to close a floodgate :P

My fort was lost anyway (yes, I save-scrummed) so I kept the pumps running. Just a few seconds later huge stream of water emerged from my front entrance :D
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Avelon

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2010, 07:06:34 am »

(snip)
My fort was lost anyway (yes, I save-scrummed) so I kept the pumps running. Just a few seconds later huge stream of water emerged from my front entrance :D
Hehehe. Not so much of a problem immediately since I don't have an infinite source of water, but this could end up being a great source of Fun. My fort honestly has no real problems (see 'What's going on in your fortress?' to see just how bad it is), so I might just have to create one later. Thanks for the tips on pressure!
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Quatch

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2010, 10:24:29 am »

Added note on windmills: They transfer power through floors, so you don't need to channel out the central tile to connect them to stuff under.

HOWEVER, there is a bug related to this and I don't recall the details, it matters which you build first: the gear below the floor, or the windmill above.

Also, sweet diagrams.
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Zaranthan

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2010, 10:37:10 am »

- Pumps seem to somehow generate small amounts of water. With closed-loop system you really want an overflow. Just carve a tunnel to the edge of the map and smooth it and carve fortifications (you can't mine the edge but you can open it up with a fortification) and you'll have an overflow.
Not quite, but I have HEARD, that there are oddities with pumped water, that let you end up with more water than you previously had. The wiki stated that.

Easy on the old info, people. This bug was fixed a few versions prior to 40d.

That said, if it has somehow cropped up again, it wouldn't be much of an issue here. An occasional splash of extra water will quickly evaporate (though it will muddy the floor, which can be irritating, or even bad if it's got masterwork engravings on it).

Added note on windmills: They transfer power through floors, so you don't need to channel out the central tile to connect them to stuff under.

HOWEVER, there is a bug related to this and I don't recall the details, it matters which you build first: the gear below the floor, or the windmill above.

Also, sweet diagrams.
I haven't heard about the magic power trick, but I do know that if you build the windmill first, it will have a "Stable Foundation." If you build the gear first, the windmill will be "Hanging" on the gear, and if you then switch off the gear, the windmill will collapse.
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Shoku

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 12:24:16 pm »

You can keep water from muddying up the floor by giving it a further drop through the grate. If there is 7/7 right under the grate maybe some water will hit it and go sideways onto the floor but while it is falling it only moves straight down so if it is still falling after the grate you're fine.

The 3x3 grate is a not go though. Grates don't support so if you try to build that middle grate it will just fall.

You could easily make 2 1x3 lines of grates (or even 2x3 if you want to be sure.) But if you have the water falling on that 1x3 solid floor line just maybe it will get too deep for a moment and they will get upset canceling a lot of jobs. You can keep that floor dry by having floors one level up for the water to move off of onto either row of grates. With just one set of pumps supplying this you should get a lot of mist, a fair deal of water taking dust and things off of your dwarves, and possibly no job cancellations (the tile of falling water is so brief- I don't think it interfered with their pathing before.)

Edit:


So I did light gray and dark gray for the walls but one is further back. The pump stack haws already been explained so I didn't put any detail into that. Once you know how to do it making it taller doesn't take any thinking. Red is for grates, light blue is anywhere you will have falling water, dark blue will be standing water.

If I had thought of it sooner I'd only have dark gray for the places you want to have the same thing for three rows. It would work the way I drew it but you don't need it for the top section of falling water. You just want the floor it falls onto 3 wide so if can spread out when it hits it.

You could also easily place an overflow if you were worried about that (which I would use to initially fill the thing.)
Because water doesn't do pressure through diagonals you can just dig a shaft straight down to the height you want water and then make it move through a diagonal. The water will flow out through the diagonal pretty quick because that is 7/7 next to 0/7, especially if the next tile is a fall into the basin.
*For efficiency you can get away with around 12 tiles before the water flow really starts to slow down.

Now, do recognize that the water level is going to go down a bit when you run the pump stack. Each one can potentially take a full 7/7 tile and stick it in the tile behind them so you would have up to one tile per pump taken out of the basin. Likewise however many tiles from the top pump to where the water starts to fall will probably be just about 7/7. If you let the diagonal auto-fill your basin it is going to keep it full but you will have all this extra water around. All in all the water that is flowing would probably fill more than the 6 open tiles the way I have drawn this. (9 if you make the middle row of blocks just floors.)

There are 3 (4) options. You can dig drainage on the level that is supposed to be open. As long as you have somewhere for the water to go this is fine and really it would only be used for a second if you turn the pumps off.
Or you can install a floodgate at the input. If you hook that up to a level and close it once the basin is full you know that it has room for all of the water that is moving around. You should see very little evaporation while it is running but after a long time you might want to turn it off to let everything settle then open up the flood gate again to replenish it.
Or you could widen the open level and top level of the basin.  This gives more room for any extra water and bumps up the capacity of your basin at just normal fill. (Taller works too but you'll need another pump.)

Personally I do the floodgate.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2010, 01:23:29 pm by Shoku »
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Kidiri

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Re: Artificial Cistern-Based Waterfall
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 01:13:11 pm »

You could also make a 3 by 3 square of grates, but instead of the middle grate, a floor with a support underneath it. If you then also make the mouth of the waterfall similar, and the drain large enough, there should be minimal flooding.

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