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[forsaken1111]

Can't you cover it up again once you wall off the first layer?

[Lord Darkstar]

It would seem that you'd need to turn on and off temperatures, due to the way channelling has been changed to make it more tedious to build a single wide moat defense.

[BigD145]

It would seem that you'd need to turn on and off temperatures, due to the way channelling has been changed to make it more tedious to build a single wide moat defense.

There is no moat defense when water/ice/freezing is involved.

[Lord Darkstar]

It was really changed to stop people from easily building an empty pit (unfilled moat) around wherever they needed defending. So now you have to double designate your 1 tile wide empty pit to defend yourself in that way--- and the consequences of the change is it is much more dangerous to your dwarves to do things like breaching water and magma, trying to get through aquafiers, etc. Doesn't really slow down the "1 tile wide" empty pit/moat defense though.

[forsaken1111]

It was really changed to stop people from easily building an empty pit (unfilled moat) around wherever they needed defending. So now you have to double designate your 1 tile wide empty pit to defend yourself in that way--- and the consequences of the change is it is much more dangerous to your dwarves to do things like breaching water and magma, trying to get through aquafiers, etc. Doesn't really slow down the "1 tile wide" empty pit/moat defense though.

Do you have a quote from toady to back this up, or is it just your opinion?

[Coidzure Dreams]

It was really changed to stop people from easily building an empty pit (unfilled moat) around wherever they needed defending. So now you have to double designate your 1 tile wide empty pit to defend yourself in that way--- and the consequences of the change is it is much more dangerous to your dwarves to do things like breaching water and magma, trying to get through aquafiers, etc. Doesn't really slow down the "1 tile wide" empty pit/moat defense though.

Do you have a quote from toady to back this up, or is it just your opinion?

Haven't seen a specific quote laid out, but people keep referencing one of the DF talks on the subject, IIRC.  There's the thread in the suggestions forum on the subject that should have the relevant quotations laid out though. 

[Squirrelloid]

Toady is quoted from an IRC discussion in at least one of the bug/suggestions threads asking for old channeling back, fwiw.  This doesn't stop Toady's reasoning from being wrong, or the change from being one of the most annoying changes ever implemented.

[forsaken1111]

It does make sense to me. I'd like to see you dig a channel deeper than you are tall without actually going down into it.

[Hyndis]

Easy to do this.

Just dig up/down stairs. 

The water is still below ground. The dwarf will get his feet wet digging the up stairs that are now submerged, but he will not drown or freeze.

Once you've done that, then channel. The channeling will just remove the down stairs which are the floor, and the dwarves will not get wet doing this because no dwarf will path into 7/7 water. The 7/7 water then turns into ice as soon as it touches the air.

[Squirrelloid]

It does make sense to me. I'd like to see you dig a channel deeper than you are tall without actually going down into it.

I'd like to see you carve a tile worth of stone without entering that area either.  I don't know how big a tile is, but i know its at least as deep as a door is tall, and I'm pretty sure i'd have a hard time clearing an area of rock that deep without entering it.

Dwarves do this all the time.

More relevantly, a number of things can be done to avoid leaving a 'ramp'.  You can climb a steeper wall than would qualify as a ramp to get out.  You can use a rope or other climbing device to get out.  I just assume the game abstracts this like it does other aspects.  Nothing is to say old-style channels left perfectly square pits - they just didn't leave enough slope to qualify as a ramp.

And people manage to dig perfectly square pits in real life all the time.  Its called a grave, you may have seen one?  Its 6'+ deep, has squared sides, and the person digging it gets out just fine without leaving a ramp.  Wonder how they do that...

[The Architect]

Well, as long as this dead thread has been resurrected: I agree with Squirrelloid. Some aspects of the game have to be abstracted because there's no appreciable benefit to outweigh the costs of modeling details. No one wants dwarves to have to run around collecting various tools and implements for every job any more than we enjoyed dwarves micromanaging coin supplies.

In my eyes, there's nothing wrong with assuming that dwarves utilize the implements necessary to do a job: namely, digging a relatively inaccessible hole without ending up at the bottom of it. Having the player designate the digging again and provide an explicit exit is a fruitless and unnecessary burden. It is like asking the player to designate separate consecutive jobs to chip a stone blade and to attach it to its handle.

[Dorf3000]

At first I was like 
and then I was like 

It's only annoying if you're used to the channelling from the old version.  I see no way that a dwarf could realistically dig out a rock pit in an aquifer without getting wet.  It also prevents dumb dwarves from stranding themselves on islands, which they commonly did.  Finally, it's not enough to dig a channel and have it be a perfect defence any more.  You can still make one, but it requires more work, so you're encouraged to try a more realistic defensive structure.  The alternative would be allowing some beasts and invaders to climb out of pits, which you'll probably agree is even more troublesome.

You'll (all) get over it.

[Pickled Tink]

At first I was like 
and then I was like 

It's only annoying if you're used to the channelling from the old version.  I see no way that a dwarf could realistically dig out a rock pit in an aquifer without getting wet.  It also prevents dumb dwarves from stranding themselves on islands, which they commonly did.  Finally, it's not enough to dig a channel and have it be a perfect defence any more.  You can still make one, but it requires more work, so you're encouraged to try a more realistic defensive structure.  The alternative would be allowing some beasts and invaders to climb out of pits, which you'll probably agree is even more troublesome.

You'll (all) get over it.

Except now dwarves freeze when channeling into frozen aquifers. Breaching magma pools can result in a flaming fortress if you don't micromanage it (The only safe way I have found is to tap the magma sea directly), and if you are going for a deep embark like I usually do and dig a vertical stairway shaft with three up/down stairs and a channel, if the channel dwarf is the first to strike a cavern (And doing what I do you might hit all three), he will knock the floor out from under himself and fall to his death (I keep losing dwarves this way! But it's the only way to get a fort established at -100 z levels in a reasonable period of time though). Also, no longer any safe way to clear overhanging floors.

It is also extremely bad aesthetically, and when the channels are full of fluids, occasionally impossible to clear safely.

Honestly, The arguments have all gone up in the suggestions thread, and in the other thread before that in bug reporting. Everything you've said has been answered in those, and the pretty much everyone involved in the discussion has become a Legendary Dead Horse Beater.

[Dorf3000]

Honestly, The arguments have all gone up in the suggestions thread, and in the other thread before that in bug reporting. Everything you've said has been answered in those, and the pretty much everyone involved in the discussion has become a Legendary Dead Horse Beater.

Oh, how I wish that meant I was exempt from the economy...

But my point still stands, if this was the way channels had always worked, most people would not complain, but find workarounds or do things differently.  It's only because we're used to a different effect which is easier for the planner to deal with that it seems so onerous.  You might as well complain that not being able to use goblin bones for bolts any more (because they can't be butchered from the skeletons) is a bug.

[Grocer]

The 'current' thread is here .  Old threads are here and here.  Over thirty pages of back and forth.  Have fun!