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The new channeling is covered in awesome sauce, the old channeling smelled real bad.

113 (19.3%)

The old channeling was the best, we don't need two ways to make ramps it is just silly.

245 (41.8%)

Old channeling was the best, new channeling is also the best.  Can't we all just get along?

132 (22.5%)

You people need to get on with your lives, it's not a big deal either way.

96 (16.4%)

Total Members Voted: 583

[Andir]

I told you why. It doesn't make sense that a dwarf can easily climb out of the pit, but an intruder can't. I take the old channels back if intruders can cross them. Then you would have to dig 2 deep channels as moats, and everyone would be happy, except those that exploited the old channels to dig a simple moat.

Who said a dwarf had to climb out?  You can dig a pit without getting in.  It's been stated several times with several solutions.  Even a simple rope with a hook on one end would work to get a dwarf out and make it hard for an enemy to cross.  Just because enemies don't cross them doesn't mean it can't be added.  But the pathing right now doesn't support the decision tree to figure out if climbing down into a pit and using a rope to get out is faster than walking 10 blocks one direction or the other... it also doesn't calculate breaking down a wall instead of going around either.  So you are artificially picking out moats as being some ultra powerful defense when it's really not any more or less relevant than a wooden wall or a rampless hillside.

You are calling for the complication of a construction simply because enemies would rather go around?  You do realize how stupid that is, right?  It's not like you are forced to work as fast as you can to build a moat around your fort while staring down invaders... they don't come to your fort until certain conditions are met and building a moat (no matter how long the moat takes) is not one of those conditions.  You have to have so much fortress value and (from my experience) have your first trade wagon show up to get sieges.  It doesn't matter how long or how many steps it takes to build a ditch... the enemies are not going to attack you right away so why make up stupid artificial limits on how many steps it takes to dig a hole?

[Shades]

I told you why. It doesn't make sense that a dwarf can easily climb out of the pit, but an intruder can't. I take the old channels back if intruders can cross them. Then you would have to dig 2 deep channels as moats, and everyone would be happy, except those that exploited the old channels to dig a simple moat.

Again: It fails to achieve its goal, a simple bridge and a single extra dug square will still block everything, and removes construction choice from the user that lots of people already used.

Other than some aesthetic random can't climb sillyness than has already been talked about over and over what does this new system give us that is worth what it takes away. It certainly doesn't make any difference for invasion defence.

[zagibu]

Building walls is much more involved than digging a moat the old way. The same holds true for digging a moat the new way. A simple bridge is not enough, you have to be able to raise/retract it.

And Andir, you should play in evil biomes more, there are enemies that will attack you right away.

Also, digging a hole somebody is not able to cross easily can NOT be done from above. All presented methods in this thread are either plain silly (corkscrews, really?) or not applicable for the medieval fantasy setting. The only argumentation I accept is that it would be easy to pull the digger out with a rope, and that the game doesn't necessarily have to simulate this. I also understand the need for digging from above, to punch holes into layers.

I still prefer the new channeling, though.

[Shades]

Building walls is much more involved than digging a moat the old way. The same holds true for digging a moat the new way. A simple bridge is not enough, you have to be able to raise/retract it.

You don't need to build walls you just dig one extra square of moat and remove all the other upramps (which takes almost no time). You can just remove the bridge if you don't want any way in at all, no need to raise it, Again very quick (And ignoring that you'd probably want a bridge with the old style of defence anyway).

Besides which the holes are only as deep as a kitten*, being that one has to lay down for the other to move past, and it's pretty easy to dig a hole that shallow without going into it.

*or a dragon

[Andir]

And Andir, you should play in evil biomes more, there are enemies that will attack you right away.

Also, digging a hole somebody is not able to cross easily can NOT be done from above. All presented methods in this thread are either plain silly (corkscrews, really?) or not applicable for the medieval fantasy setting. The only argumentation I accept is that it would be easy to pull the digger out with a rope, and that the game doesn't necessarily have to simulate this. I also understand the need for digging from above, to punch holes into layers.

I have played in evil biomes... but I still don't buy that the "ramp nerf" for channeling needed to be done.

So using a pick to mine out a solid stone wall in seconds is perfectly fine with you, but clearing that same block from above is silly?  And yeah, corkscrews (aka: augers) would be an acceptable too for removing dirt.  We do that today (only mostly used with engines) to remove dirt from a hole to put posts in the ground.  But there are records for ancient augers with a "T" handle at the top for manually removing dirt from a hole without stepping into said hole.  There is also a tool that looks like two shovels put face to face with a hinge just above the faces that allow you to lift dirt out of a hole without stepping into it.  A smart dwarf would start in the inaccessible part of the hole, dig down with that tool and then dig another one right next to it until it's clear.  It might ever take less time that using a pick-axe to clear a full cube of solid granite.

Just because you don't know about these methods doesn't make it impossible.

[zagibu]

I do know about these methods, and both do not produce a hole that is capable of blocking invaders. I would also like to see you dig a channel into granite with a corkscrew.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

People know that after digging these channels, the ramps can be removed.. right?

[Sean Mirrsen]

WHY. IS. THIS. STILL. GOING!??!? The question is moot, too many people like the new channels for them to be entirely removed. What will happen will entirely depend on what role Toady One wants the two variants to play. End this discussion, please!

[Andir]

People know that after digging these channels, the ramps can be removed.. right?

Yes, but it's an added step.

We want the ability to dig a channel without having to go into the channel back.

I do know about these methods, and both do not produce a hole that is capable of blocking invaders. I would also like to see you dig a channel into granite with a corkscrew.

You completely ignored the fact that you can dig out an entire granite block with a pick axe in the same amount of time.  Both are achievable with dwarven intuitiveness and there is no difference, thus.... bring back old channeling.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

People know that after digging these channels, the ramps can be removed.. right?

Yes, but it's an added step.

We want the ability to dig a channel without having to go into the channel back.

Either you're lazy or you're making rediculous ammounts of channels.
If its the latter, the new system works much better, I've done many successful stripmining operations with it, as my dwarves can get in and out without trouble.

So basically, I dont see what the issue here is, but it seems to be mostly laziness from that statement.

WHY. IS. THIS. STILL. GOING!??!? The question is moot, too many people like the new channels for them to be entirely removed. What will happen will entirely depend on what role Toady One wants the two variants to play. End this discussion, please!

agreed.


edit: Actually come to think of it, ponds and streams should have channels on their sides too.

[Andir]

People know that after digging these channels, the ramps can be removed.. right?

Yes, but it's an added step.

We want the ability to dig a channel without having to go into the channel back.

Either you're lazy or you're making rediculous ammounts of channels.
If its the latter, the new system works much better, I've done many successful stripmining operations with it, as my dwarves can get in and out without trouble.

So basically, I dont see what the issue here is, but it seems to be mostly laziness from that statement.

Ugh, it has nothing to do with laziness.  It's about being able to break open a water source without creating a ramp.  It's aesthetics partly, ease secondly.  I want to be able to dig a long channel without then having to send a dwarf in to remove the ramps.  This was an option before, it's not now.  You can't remove a ramp from above, so now you get that eyesore of a ramp in your nice clean channel for no other reason than to allow digging ramps from above and below.  When I wanted to clear large tracts of land from above, I'd designate the level below it for up ramps.  Now there's two designations for doing this (up and down ramps) and no designation for digging a hole without a ramp.  What if I wanted to place random pits around my entrance with 1x1 channels for aesthetic reasons?  What if it's a fun trap for goblins to fall into when they are pushed by a nearby cave in?  I can't do that now without losing a dwarf.  What if I wanted to open up a fresh channel to a pressurized magma pit?  I can't do that without losing a dwarf.  What if I want to dig into an aquifer in a freezing biome?  Dead dwarf.

Removing the old designation removed options.  It's not about laziness.

[NW_Kohaku]

It's about being able to break open a water source without creating a ramp.

That can be done with more elegant means, if we are getting Toady to change how designations are handled...

The basic gist of this is that we get a new designation type ("sap wall"?) that lets a dwarf carefully undermine a wall, and prop up the holes with small collapsable supports (possibly taking a wood or bar or stone, like with a full support).  These supports are then capable of being attached to a lever.  The lever, once pulled, like with a full support, will collapse that wall, while keeping your dwarves from a safe distance.

This idea comes from my general reaction to the almost suicidal way you have to engrave fortifications in the side of magma pipes to gain access to them from lower levels, and the fairly dangerous way you might otherwise "break the dam" by channeling right next to the places where you are about to channel water.  Collapsing walls like this wouldn't require any explosives, and give players a safe, if time-consuming way to bust walls next to dangerous areas. 

Also,

Again, what's wrong with the "remove stairs from above" approach? 

We have the ability to build stairs down from above because Toady had problems creating rope ladders, but that just gives us the ability to "put the ladder down the hole", the other part of that rope ladder was "pulling it back up when we are done".

If we can just have the functionality of being able to toss a rope ladder down (build stairs down) so that dwarves can dig away all the ramps and make a good pit, and then remove that ladder from above (remove stairs from above), we are not doing anything ground-shaking.  We're just not forcing a dwarf to remain behind to destroy the last way back up, or forcing him to dig a new path out, then re-walling the pit back in.

[Andir]

But it's not in yet... my main complaint is the removal of something that worked for (what I consider) asinine reasons with such a small scope that it doesn't make sense.  It's like taking away all the hair pins in the world because someone used one to pick a lock.

[NW_Kohaku]

It's like taking away all the hair pins in the world because someone used one to pick a lock.

Or taking away all people's liquids at an airport and arresting innocent people for bringing along a diet coke, and causing billions of dollars in delays and security sweeps that are still foiled by anyone trying to get past them 90% of the time just because one guy once tried to smuggle in a liquid explosive that famously didn't even work, anyway?

[Shades]

People know that after digging these channels, the ramps can be removed.. right?

From above? please tell me how.