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The new channeling is covered in awesome sauce, the old channeling smelled real bad.

113 (19.3%)

The old channeling was the best, we don't need two ways to make ramps it is just silly.

245 (41.8%)

Old channeling was the best, new channeling is also the best.  Can't we all just get along?

132 (22.5%)

You people need to get on with your lives, it's not a big deal either way.

96 (16.4%)

Total Members Voted: 583

[Dave Mongoose]

I used to use channelling as a safe way to remove the last wall when releasing water or magma.

Now the dwarf digs the ramp then walks down it and gets burned/drowned.

Also: ugly triangles in my channels.

These are why I want old channelling back.

I don't mind keeping the new one as 'dig down ramp', for people who weren't aware that this is what 'dig up ramp' on the layer below does.

[Kuraudo]

This change added nothing new (you simply had to designate upward ramps from the Z-level below in the old version to achieve the new channeling effect), and it forces you to leave underwater/magma ramps everywhere.  I hate it. 

If Toady did this to prevent making moats, all he's done is added an extra step to the process, at the expense of a valuable tool.

This sums it up perfectly.  There is no reason to like the new system  - the old upramp method worked nearly precisely the same.  The only difference really is the fact that you had to create the ramp from the zlevel below.

[Grocer]

There is no reason to like the new system  - the old upramp method worked nearly precisely the same.  The only difference really is the fact that you had to create the ramp from the zlevel below.

One reason many people have given for preferring the new system is that when strip mining before you couldn't designate a large area for channeling without getting your miners stuck, and if you used carve up ramp then it would designate under trees thus causing your miners to drop elf assault troops on their squishy little heads.  The new method 'fixes' this behavior.

[Shades]

One reason many people have given for preferring the new system is that when strip mining before you couldn't designate a large area for channeling without getting your miners stuck, and if you used carve up ramp then it would designate under trees thus causing your miners to drop elf assault troops on their squishy little heads.  The new method 'fixes' this behavior.

On the surface it can still cause caveins if your designating large areas, Also up-ramping doesn't seem to drop trees on you in this version, seems to just count as digging a tile so is arguably better than down-ramping as you cover more tiles..

[Zombie]

I don't understand this problem. If you design something where you channel your dwarves to death, that is your fault. Do not blame a design change.

If you dislike blinking triangles then just don't look at them. I mean, I've read the first few pages and a few people said (paraphrased), "If you don't like instatrenching then just don't do it".

Let's look at the facts:
Old channeling is from ABOVE, which lets you make holes that are mysterious in how a dwarf can remove a large section of rock without leaving a gradient. Ramping designated from the z-level below accomplished the same thing with z-level flipping but with a gradient that, apparently, looks stupid.

New channeling is from ABOVE, but results in ramps which people think look stupid. Ramping designated from the z-level below accomplishes the same thing and still looks stupid.

This is all about it looking stupid and people deciding to grief because of some odd sleight against their idea of aesthetics. The "new" system is called stupid and ugly and, a few times, illogical. The fact is, it is perfectly logical. In order for your miner to dig out a full tile of rock from above, they would need to make a way to go into the hole and then dig out the rest. This would result in a gradient called a ramp. It is perfectly logical and, actually, quite realistic. Those of you digging up archaic methods to somehow create a channel without having gradated sides, you are silly people. With stubby arms and a pick, it's a marvel dwarves can dig holes big enough for elves to even walk in, let alone channeling a hole big enough to dump the damn treehuggers in without their heads sticking out. If you don't like reality, then please give me a list of your names and I'll just do a quick search to see how many of you have mentioned "realism" and how you want more of it in DF.

This is senseless bickering and the vote is highly biased. I really don't give a crap either way, but the ONLY option supporting new channeling comes off as juvenile while the one for neutral parties comes off as being bastardish. It seems that the only two options are, "I like old channels but hate ramps" and "I like old channels AND ramps!" Joy. Can't we just deal with the game as it is? I trust Toady to do what he thinks is right with his own damn product. We don't have a right to demand he change something because it "inconveniences" us in some way that doesn't seem to make complete sense.

I have no clue who said this, but I have read several posts referencing something like it... I don't think anyone on these forums has the right to point out that Toady receives money from the fanbase, seeing as we all receive a free game from him, some input in the development, and regular updates on what's going on. If you think that threatening to withdraw donations is a cool move in any sense because of some goddess damned ramps or channels or whatever this argument is even about anymore, then you... I have no words for you, only a seething range with images of dwarves and dwarves. The dwarves are striking the dwarves. The dwarves triumphantly shout, "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!" I will crush you under a bridge. [/rage]

Nobles make unreasonable demands, channeling now leaves logical ramps... Oh, I get what this is about... You're all just mad because you can't crush the ramps under bridges for constantly mandating the production of clownite backscratchers when you haven't even found any clownite yet. Maybe people will now learn the fine art of building serviceways and floodgating/dooring/walling off the dangerous Fun bits. Hell, my 6 z deep 10x10 cistern has a bigass drain lever just in case I need to add pipes off of it going somewhere. That's right, I can drain 600 squares of 7/7 deep water... directly into the lower cavern. Just because I feel like it. I also have stairways going alllllll the way down to the bottom level, just in case I want to widen the bottom for some crazy reason (mostly so I can make a secondary cistern using the Fun of water pressure to fill it). Channeling as it is now just needs some forethought if you want rampless channels. In the case of piping magma, you'll just either have to deal with those flashing triangles or building a screw pump. Honestly, I don't think this is THAT big of a deal.

[Shades]

ranted

Did you read any of the thread?

[Pickled Tink]

ranted

Did you read any of the thread?

Evidently he did not.

If he had he would have seen that this:

Old channeling is from ABOVE, which lets you make holes that are mysterious in how a dwarf can remove a large section of rock without leaving a gradient. Ramping designated from the z-level below accomplished the same thing with z-level flipping but with a gradient that, apparently, looks stupid.

has been answered, and a couple of different but equally workable answer were also posted in the bug reporting thread on the matter.

Oh wait, he did, but he decided that since it didn't support his position he was entitled to ignore it (I believe he also used the dreaded ad hominem as well! I'm widdling myself in fear here!). He also said dwarves arms were "stubby". Looking at the raws for 0.31.03, an adult dwarfs average size is 60,000 size units. An adult humans is an average of 70,000 (In 40d it was 6 and 7 respectively, so no change there). Dwarves are still quite large, what works for us will work for them. The whole claim that they can't do it because they are "stubby" is already laughable before that when you consider that one thing dwarves are practically renowned for is digging.

It has also been mentioned repeatedly that the ramp into a hole is only needed when you are moving things like, say, wheelbarrows or heavy construction machinery into and out of a hole. This has been my own experience with such endeavors in hole digging in the land of the real. Dwarves have picks. Now, while a solid platinum pick may indeed be heavy, it doesn't count. Making handholds to climb out is easy, as is knocking them out when you're done. Lean over side, mangle handholds, depart.

The derisive tone of his tirade about ramps being aesthetically repugnant was entirely unnecessary, and I would have ignored it if it weren't for him presenting his claim here as if it is somehow a new world shattering insight, when it has come up and been dealt with time and time again.

Also, trying to talk down to us as though you are the only person able to create detailed and complicated mega constructions is patently absurd. We can do all that shit to. You impress no one.

Finally, he completely ignored the "Dwarf get frozen in freezing aquifer" issue. Only way around that on some maps is to turn off temperature.

New channeling is from ABOVE, but results in ramps which people think look stupid. Ramping designated from the z-level below accomplishes the same thing and still looks stupid.

Does not compute.

When we designate dig ramp, we want a ramp. When we designate dig channel, we want a channel, not a ramp. Currently we have two tools for doing the exact same thing.

Final word Zombie:

Show the respect you would be shown in return, and since none was given, none shall be returned.


Now, everything that is to be said on this issue for both sides has been said, can we just let the thread die? This dead horse looks well and truly beaten.

[kaypy]

I don't want to add any fuel to the flamewar, but...

I've been able to work around some of the problems folks have been expressing with ramp based channeling (getting rid of that last ramp, preventing cooked feet). I've added these to the wiki, so I wont repeat myself here, but this seems somewhere that folks having trouble are likely to notice.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Just to take the thread off on a tangent - it's been a while since I last embarked on a freezing biome (too much hassle for my fun), so I forgot - does the ice still form "aboveground", rather than only "outside"? Because allowing an artificial roof to prevent insta-freezing would be one workaround for that kind of situation.

As far as the original thread goes, I can quote (of all people) Gregory Powell, from Isaac Asimov's "Reason" - "You can prove all you want by coldly logical reason - if you pick the proper postulates. We have ours and Cutie has his." Now, I'm not calling anyone 'Cutie', but this thread has so far stuck with this sentence to the letter. Each of us has things considered as undeniably true, and they're different things, so the discussion won't go anywhere. I'd like to put forward the idea that henceforth this thread be dedicated to finding workarounds for problems with the current system - as would be effective in this version, not whenever Toady makes an update on the matter.

edit: And wow. Ninja'd. Oh well, I guess the wiki's as good a place as any.

[Andir]

I don't want to add any fuel to the flamewar, but...

I've been able to work around some of the problems folks have been expressing with ramp based channeling (getting rid of that last ramp, preventing cooked feet). I've added these to the wiki, so I wont repeat myself here, but this seems somewhere that folks having trouble are likely to notice.

... but then you have to design your waterway with a non-accessible point to prevent the last ramp being placed ... not intuitive or conducive to a single level moat, or causing a cave in which leaves rock in your moat (which I always clean out via designate dump.)

So you've not really presented me with any way to create a non-accessible moat that's clean of rubble without just pretending the items isn't there (via hide) and going through special hoops when previously, I just said... dig me a hole.

[Tarran]

...What's wrong with a few stones? Really? What use is hide if you don't use it to hide things?

The guide is slightly off, you don't really have to dig the hallway. You can just dig the ramps and then remove them without the hallway.

Ed: read the ramp guide, not the channel guide...

[Ilmoran]

I don't want to add any fuel to the flamewar, but...

I've been able to work around some of the problems folks have been expressing with ramp based channeling (getting rid of that last ramp, preventing cooked feet). I've added these to the wiki, so I wont repeat myself here, but this seems somewhere that folks having trouble are likely to notice.

... but then you have to design your waterway with a non-accessible point to prevent the last ramp being placed ... not intuitive or conducive to a single level moat, or causing a cave in which leaves rock in your moat (which I always clean out via designate dump.)

So you've not really presented me with any way to create a non-accessible moat that's clean of rubble without just pretending the items isn't there (via hide) and going through special hoops when previously, I just said... dig me a hole.

Err, how did the previous channeling give you a non-accessible moat free of rubble?  Pretty sure when  you channelled previous, any stone created would end up in the hole.

[Andir]

It was fairly easy if the moat was in dirt (since it doesn't create rubble.)  Otherwise, you just have an amateur miner do the last tile.

...What's wrong with a few stones? Really? What use is hide if you don't use it to hide things?

I don't like hiding things.  I either destroy them via dumping into magma or use it to build something.

Edit:  It also gives my excess population something to do instead of party.  It's been working out quite well by keeping them on dumping tasks.  If I lose one or two to an invasion it doesn't spur a tantrum spiral because everyone stays "passing acquaintance."

[Sean Mirrsen]

Considering that the "hide" feature was made specifically for the aesthetics crowd that was bothered by random stone lying about... yeah.

[Andir]

It's not just about aesthetics though... if I were to make a guess, it's more OCD than anything.  I know it's there, even if hidden.

There's just no point making it harder to dig a clean channel because the dwarf AI is stupid.  I could easily work around that by working my way out from walls in layers.  Now I have to go through all kinds of hacks and tricks to achieve the same goal as before.

All we really need is a way to destroy a ramp from above... that solves every problem and makes sense.