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The new channeling is covered in awesome sauce, the old channeling smelled real bad.

113 (19.3%)

The old channeling was the best, we don't need two ways to make ramps it is just silly.

245 (41.8%)

Old channeling was the best, new channeling is also the best.  Can't we all just get along?

132 (22.5%)

You people need to get on with your lives, it's not a big deal either way.

96 (16.4%)

Total Members Voted: 583

[Pilsu]

Yeah, I suppose we could just relax and go with the flow. You know, the flow of magma my god damn miner walked into again because of the bleeping ramps.

Defeatism never got anyone anything. Complaining works sometimes, even if people's attitudes towards dissent of any kind, even reasonable, are toxic.

[Silverionmox]

It's the dwarf's failing self-preservation instincts that are at fault here, not the ramps.

Besides, floor the damn thing over before filling it. It's a channel filled with molten rock! Of course it's dangerous; of course it requires special attention.

[Ilmoran]

Fact is, lots of the players that hate the new channeling likely haven't gotten used to it yet.

Similar to, for example, the new You Tube video page layout. I hated it at first, but after a while I just kinda got used to it. Just give the new channeling some time, you'll all get used to it sometime.

Getting used to it won't change how it works.  The fact is, functionality was lost, and no amount of time will suddenly cause that functionality to be restored.

[Rotten]

It's the dwarf's failing self-preservation instincts that are at fault here, not the ramps.

Besides, floor the damn thing over before filling it. It's a channel filled with molten rock! Of course it's dangerous; of course it requires special attention.

Sure, of course. But you don't have time to floor over it when Urist McMiner has to go to that party RIGHT NOW. And sometimes flooring before filling doesn't help, like when the miner uses the last tile channeled to go to the party, or the access ramps.

In the end, why not simply add a 'dig downward ramp' option?! Everybody is happy.

[Tarran]

Fact is, lots of the players that hate the new channeling likely haven't gotten used to it yet.

Similar to, for example, the new You Tube video page layout. I hated it at first, but after a while I just kinda got used to it. Just give the new channeling some time, you'll all get used to it sometime.

Getting used to it won't change how it works.

Never said it would, just that you would be able to figure out ways to get around the bad parts and take advantage of the good parts.

The fact is, functionality was lost, and no amount of time will suddenly cause that functionality to be restored.

So little functionality was lost, like, a few tiles worth?

It's the dwarf's failing self-preservation instincts that are at fault here, not the ramps.

Besides, floor the damn thing over before filling it. It's a channel filled with molten rock! Of course it's dangerous; of course it requires special attention.

Sure, of course. But you don't have time to floor over it when Urist McMiner has to go to that party RIGHT NOW.

In the end, why not simply add a 'dig downward ramp' option?! Everybody is happy.

Agreed.

[Silverionmox]

It's the dwarf's failing self-preservation instincts that are at fault here, not the ramps.

Besides, floor the damn thing over before filling it. It's a channel filled with molten rock! Of course it's dangerous; of course it requires special attention.

Sure, of course. But you don't have time to floor over it when Urist McMiner has to go to that party RIGHT NOW. And sometimes flooring before filling doesn't help, like when the miner uses the last tile channeled to go to the party, or the access ramps.

In the end, why not simply add a 'dig downward ramp' option?! Everybody is happy.

Because you can't dig a hole without entering it. The dig downward ought to be there of course for the ease of designation, but a ramp is still a ramp: without magic you can't suspend a liquid until you have completely dug out the adjoining wall.
I agree that dwarves jumping into the magma puddle is bad, but it's a lack of AI that's at fault, not something else.

Really, with lava the safety precautions are not an optional afterthought. Floor off most of the channel. Build a few bars on the other end of the future ramp first, so it's a dead end. Lock the door afterwards.

[Ilmoran]

Because you can't dig a hole without entering it. The dig downward ought to be there of course for the ease of designation, but a ramp is still a ramp: without magic you can't suspend a liquid until you have completely dug out the adjoining wall.
I agree that dwarves jumping into the magma puddle is bad, but it's a lack of AI that's at fault, not something else.

Really, with lava the safety precautions are not an optional afterthought. Floor off most of the channel. Build a few bars on the other end of the future ramp first, so it's a dead end. Lock the door afterwards.

Several people have suggested strategies to *finish* digging a hole from above.  You don't need to dig the whole thing from above, but you should be able to remove the last little bit without standing in the bottom.

As for "without magic you can't suspend a liquid until you have completely dug out the adjoining wall", a ramp doesn't help with that at all.  In fact, if that's the way you think things should be, there should be no way at all to dig out a tile (whether by mining, channeling, or ramping) without exposing your dwarves to the liquid.  At most you could maybe do a carve fortification (punch a few holes in the retaining wall and run), because the most you could do is let through a small flow before having to get out of the way.

[Rotten]

Because you can't dig a hole without entering it.

EDIT: And also, realism< fun in Dwarf Fortress. Even if it was impossible to dig a hole, it is much more annoying to designate the same tiles three or four times over for different when I should just be able to dig the damn thing straight down! And flooring over the tiles is BS, because maybe you're digging a moat or a power room, where the channel needs to be open, or you don't have time to floor over it (like the final channeled tile).
Really, if you love digging downward ramps, let Toady just add a separate designation for that. Hell, you can ONLY use that designation if you want, for 'realism'. But please, please let those of us who want normal channeling have it!

[Squirrelloid]

It's the dwarf's failing self-preservation instincts that are at fault here, not the ramps.

Besides, floor the damn thing over before filling it. It's a channel filled with molten rock! Of course it's dangerous; of course it requires special attention.

Sure, of course. But you don't have time to floor over it when Urist McMiner has to go to that party RIGHT NOW. And sometimes flooring before filling doesn't help, like when the miner uses the last tile channeled to go to the party, or the access ramps.

In the end, why not simply add a 'dig downward ramp' option?! Everybody is happy.

Because you can't dig a hole without entering it. The dig downward ought to be there of course for the ease of designation, but a ramp is still a ramp: without magic you can't suspend a liquid until you have completely dug out the adjoining wall.

I love how the people who spout the realism nonsense are the ones who don't bother to check how people actually do things, you know, in _reality_.  Its called bracing the wall - when you remove it or disable it, the wall collapses under the pressure of whatever is on the other side.  One assumes that dwarves are perfectly capable of doing this, and that the game just abstracted this part for the sake of playability.  Especially since you'd need to do this to breach while leaving a ramp just as you would to breach leaving an open channel.  So there's no improvement in realism in the new method.

[Grocer]

Never said it would, just that you would be able to figure out ways to get around the bad parts and take advantage of the good parts.

For this specific change the only 'functionality' that was added is when designating an area for strip mining you won't designate tile with trees on them, preventing your dwarves from bonking themselves on the head.*  Everything else is an exact duplicate of the previously existing (and hey look, it's still there!) carve upward ramp.  There is nothing new that you can do with it (aside from not pay attention to trees).  So forgive me, but I don't see how 'getting used to it' will result in my magically discovering how awesome it is lose true channeling while replacing it with precisely nothing.

*Which feels very much like it should be an announcement along the lines of Damp/Warm Stone.  Cancel Dig: Elf Ambush.

[Tarran]

So, what do you think we should do other then revert the channels? I just want to know.

I'll admit that the new channeling is basically like carve upward ramp, but how is it so different from the normal channeling besides the ramps? One ramp cant hurt that bad, and the AI is to blame for the magma-dwarf situations.

[Ilmoran]

So, what do you think we should do other then revert the channels? I just want to know.

I'll admit that the new channeling is basically like carve upward ramp, but how is it so different from the normal channeling besides the ramps? One ramp cant hurt that bad, and the AI is to blame for the magma-dwarf situations.

I think most everyone who doesn't like the new channeling would settle for being able to remove ramps from the top; I know I would.

[Pickled Tink]

There is nothing new that you can do with it (aside from not pay attention to trees).

Not quite true. You can now designate another channel at the bottom of a ramped channel and Urist McStupidMiner will stand in it and dig the floor out from under himself, getting trapped (Or, if there is an open space under the channel floor, falling to his death).

[Corona688]

I love the new channeling system.  Before I would have to designate channels one row at a time and that got tedious.  Now I can channel out a whole area with impunity and simply remove the ramps I don't want.

You could have always done this.  I've been stripmining with up-ramps for ages, for instance.  This new "feature" adds nothing and only takes away.

[immibis]

In the end, why not simply add a 'dig downward ramp' option?! Everybody is happy.

Because you can just dig upward ramps on the level below. Downward ramps are just open space with a ramp below.