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YES! (i would use it)

NO! (i would not use it, and i think it is pointless/unethical/gross etc.)

yes, but i would dissable it if it was an init option (all yes voters are assumed to be for an init option, only vote here if you think it should be included but you would not use it)

[Askot Bokbondeler]

also, quantum stockpiling should be disabled before waste is added to the game, and a proper piling system should be implemented, or it would be to easy: the waste of 200 dwarves over 20 years not being enough to fill a 1x1 channel.
also, i think biological waste should be treated as a semi-solid lump of materia, and not as a liquid, but also a contaminant similar to mud and blood: it would get you walls, floors, water and dwarves dirty, though it could eventually dry up and turn into a safe, solid object

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Wow, the discussion is moving fast.

Father_Alexander: The difference there is that the playing with feces is most strongly and nearly exclusively linked to immaturity in popular culture, which, like it or not, does do a lot for shaping our connotations. Extreme violence is not only found in things like Tom and Jerry, but also in anti-war movies and other things. Thus, the explicit depiction of violence is not in and of itself considered immature in our days. However, usage of feces in popular media which are not designed to create cheap laughter are very, very rare (they do exist, I would assume, when dealing with hospital environments, but that is about it). On the other hand, immature usage of feces is an entire subgenre of manga for (little) boys. And it is about as crude as you can get there. So, the only association it really raises is the laughter of Beavis and Butthead. At least that is the way I perceive it.

General: I am not too worried about calling it feces or excreta or any proper term, but I would strongly object to terms like "poop", "poo", and the like, which would place it quite strongly into the corner of children and immature behavior. Besides strengthening the unwanted association on a personal level, it also seems like a big red sign "Come here to get your turds on a stick!" actively encouraging immature behavior. Of course, I am also not opposed against sensible euphemisms like terms using "waste" in them.

Personally, I also think that mismanagement should have dire consequences for the fortress (contamination of water sources, of beverages, of food, resulting in serious epidemics). However, I am not so optimistic that the prospect of drowning the elves in "poop" once and then losing your fortress to disease would really dissuade people - remember, losing is fun (^_^;;

Given that it seems that Toady One is basically open to the proposition provided a good solution is presented, I think this thread here is kind of besides the point actually. What needs to be worked one would really be the idea for an implementation that answers to most of the concerns people have expressed and fit in with the mechanisms of the game.

To add a bit of humor as a last statement: I ought to support feces, especially for animals, for it would provide yet another example for the inferiority of dogs :) :) :) :)

Deathworks

[Raz]

It wouldn't necessarily require extra micromanagement. It's all about Toady, and how hard he is going to make it for the player (if he indeed chooses to implement waste). Anyway, seeing how nervous tissue, vomit, blood, pus, bones and brains are already modeled in a detailed fashion, it would seem rather awkward to leave intestines and excrement out. Furthermore, like multiple people have already noted, building a proper sewage system for your fort would add another level of challenge, which DF players overall seem to like.

An easy way to deal with it is to have dwarves go to a designated toilet four times a year. The toilet basically consists of a hole in the ground. Whatever you do to deal with further waste management is up to you. You could let the filth, which could be handled as a liquid, stack into a hole, eventually filling up; requiring you to dig a new hole. Or, you could dig a proper sewage system that catches filth from multiple toilet points. Each added unit of filth could add to a certain contamination level for stagnant water, eventually making the water 'filthy' or some such.

[Andeerz]

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=25070.msg1111923#msg1111923

Here's the suggestions topic for suggesting methods of implementation if people are interested!  :3  Just a reminder that it exists...

[Lord Snow]

horrible suggestion. Imagine your already useless dwarves using what little time they now have to work besides partying and coin-sorting to instead move to the next river to shit in and subsequently be dragged away and murdered by the carpmen.

[Zangi]

@Zangi
you are making an uniformed and reactionary statement, without looking into the available facts. you are also refusing to support your argument. please take a critical reasoning class (or at least read the wikipedia article on the subject) before your  next post, so that you can understand why you are wrong.

Can't be arsed to, I'm on a forum on the internet, arguing.  Well, I'll go another way.

First the vote is unbiased. This is not a random-choice poll, and the argument is pure phallacy.

Second if in your limited little world you can't possibly relate disease outbreaks to sewage management you need to read some stuff about urban saniation.

Third, toady did mention manure and urine as sources of possible future gunpowder in the latest DFtalk, so at least animal dejects are not out of his scope.

1st, eh, guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.

2nd and 3rd, I do not deny that this stuff can be used in a meaningful way. 
But, I'm of the position that the DF Community will not be able to handle waste products in anywhere near a tasteful way.


You can say that this is not what we are here to talkargue about, but it is.  The full implication of implementing feces and controlling the community so that the forums would not get out of hand with the 'I dropped Urist McBleeding into a vat of feces just so...' or whatever else have you with the imagination.
Can you truly say that some of the things players will 'brag' about or 'showcase' will not be considered NSFW?  Moderation takes time, lots of it.

Do you think the DF Community and the associated add-ons of an implemented waste management system will not get out of hand? 
Will this, we, the Community not make Toady One and ThreeToe regret it?

[Farce]

I don't think I mentioned earlier, but I think it would be great if this were a detriment to the development for a fortress.  Very little prevents a fort from just blooming instantly anywhere.

On a broader, not-just-feces note, I think increasing the needs of your Dwarves beyond just "sleep, drink, eat, occasional vacation/party, then WORKING FOREVER" would make the game better.  Cleaning the fortress' halls to keep the place glorious, various activities they could do when not working, like reading, listening to the storyteller guy in the main hall, or playing Dorf-basketball or whatever fun sport things Dorfs would do.


Like... one thing I've always wondered about the building/sim games I've played, is how stuff like supply sources and whatever are abstracted away.  In Evil Genius, I never had to manage shipping in food in for my huge staff of minions, and the like.  Sure, I had to pick up my cash from the chopper pad, but that was entirely mine - none of it went towards maintenance or paying for running costs.  I had to build someplace to stick all the bodies I made, but not someplace to hold all my food or bullets.

Waste is a huge problem - it could contaminate your water supply if you don't dump it proper, and just sticking it in a pit means you've either gotta walk REALLY far to get to the pit, or you've got a filthy, awful pit right next to your settlement.  Having to deal with it - along with all the other myriad problems of just living someplace, and managing a group of people, not just automatons, working until they need maintenance in the form of sleep or booze or whatever - would be interesting.

I really need to figure out how to vary that last sentence.

[Djohaal]

@Zangi
you are making an uniformed and reactionary statement, without looking into the available facts. you are also refusing to support your argument. please take a critical reasoning class (or at least read the wikipedia article on the subject) before your  next post, so that you can understand why you are wrong.

Can't be arsed to, I'm on a forum on the internet, arguing.  Well, I'll go another way.

First the vote is unbiased. This is not a random-choice poll, and the argument is pure phallacy.

Second if in your limited little world you can't possibly relate disease outbreaks to sewage management you need to read some stuff about urban saniation.

Third, toady did mention manure and urine as sources of possible future gunpowder in the latest DFtalk, so at least animal dejects are not out of his scope.

1st, eh, guess we will have to agree to disagree on that.

2nd and 3rd, I do not deny that this stuff can be used in a meaningful way. 
But, I'm of the position that the DF Community will not be able to handle waste products in anywhere near a tasteful way.


You can say that this is not what we are here to talkargue about, but it is.  The full implication of implementing feces and controlling the community so that the forums would not get out of hand with the 'I dropped Urist McBleeding into a vat of feces just so...' or whatever else have you with the imagination.
Can you truly say that some of the things players will 'brag' about or 'showcase' will not be considered NSFW?  Moderation takes time, lots of it.

Do you think the DF Community and the associated add-ons of an implemented waste management system will not get out of hand? 
Will this, we, the Community not make Toady One and ThreeToe regret it?

And you don't think that halls covered in dwarven vomit or the meticulous dismembration of elves in adventure mode isn't gross enough? What is the "NSFW" line here? Feces is bad but vomit and dismembration is OK? And picture someone being dumped in a pool of magma. I assure you the death is about as gruesome and perhaps more excruciating as drowning in wastewater.

I already stated in an early post that there is an important novelity factor if feces/waste/whatever gets implemented as a flow. Drowning people with flows is what people do. If toady added sand as a flow (as he mentioned in the DFtalk) we'd have traps to entomb elves in sand. If blood or all liquid contaminants could eventually pool into flows, you'd see people making large elaborate traps to drown people in gnomeblight, GCS venom, booze and vomit. At the same time. We can mod in genitals if wanted, and squeegy (with some of my insight I won't deny  ) made the foocubs mod. The thread has some lols and funnyness, but it didn't become a pandemic of mods with genitals and bodly secretions.

Stop for a second and consider how childish we already can get with what DF gives to us. I don't think adding feces would worse the situation at all, our community is quite civilized. (well that until DF gets popular  )

[Zangi]

Our society(ies) is as it is.  Violence is a very acceptable form of entertainment in America.  Families can and do watch violent stuff together.  Boss Joe and coworker Ann do not care if you like to watch/play violent stuff.  Albeit, I admit DF is a step or 2 up from that in that violent category.

Then consider how family/work friendly it is to watch people take a dump and fill up their bathtub with feces.  Now move that up to intentionally drowning people in feces on a regular basis. 
Its a leap of a difference for something that is already not looked kindly upon to something even worse.  So... safe for work you say?

Compare the distance for the change...

Squeegy's mod, is just a mod, its not Toady implemented.   Squeegy also clearly labeled it NSFW.  Discussion of the mod and related is contained in that one thread of his.  If its a Toady feature, it will not be contained in 1 thread or forum.

Hah... civilized.  Keep believing that.

[Djohaal]

I have the strong impression you are just using stuck-up-one's-ass concern with "distasteful" things to cover your own irrational taboo.

I see no difference between the grossness of drowning people in SEWAGE (I am not talking about shit itself. I see the game implementing this stuff as "wastewater" for a better term.) and decaptating them or dumping hot magma on them.

And you don't get my argument about squeegy's mod. I'm saying that if our community was so immature to the point that we'd be drowning in threads about sewer traps if toady added sewage, we'd be drowning in genital mods already because toady made it so we can add genitals and bodly secretions.

[Xzalander]

For those who complain about their "Party Dwarves" dorfs wont party if theres no Dining Hall assigned, nor will they party if they are kept happy in normal life. Parties are used to raise morale.

To be honest this whole idea is sensible and logical. Anyone who finds it distasteful, immature or silly can easily just have it turned off in the init if implemented. Thats its. Turn it off. Theres no point posting "LOL Terrible idea, only purile children find poop amusing" just post stating you find no joy from it and prefer it toggle-able.

Lastly we have dwarves crushing elves, humans, dogs, cats, babies, nobles and a plethora of other living and inanimates. And youre complaining about excrement?! Get a grip. If youre not going to complain about the violence imbued against digital beings then you have no right to complain about the immaturity of including virtual poop.


As an addendum or additional idea:

This would definately bring in the need for an actual cleaning system. Sure some of you dwarves like your forts covered in blood, dirt and mud (And hopefully crud.) I'd atleast like the ability to clean it off of places it shouldnt be... like blood on my throne.... or mud on my tables....

[PTTG??]

...Hah... civilized.  Keep believing that.

You're fighting against the wrong idea. Read the main post again; this is only about a rather generic "Filth" fluid no worse or detailed that the contents of any sewer that Indana Jones or James Bond has crept through, and which would exist primarally so that it can be taken care of with sewer systems which, occasionally, would go horribly wrong, just like everything else in DF.
 
You've somehow taken a suggestion to add an optional, sanitized infrastructure layer to the game and turned it, in your mind, into a raging culture war with you and God on one side and the Liberal Media, 4Chan, and everyone else on the other.
 
I'm not telling you to change your mind, but consider taking a step back, a deep breath, and a quick re-read of the OP.

[DalGren]

Generic waste is one thing, but even if the main post was edited, look at the thread title...

[Zangi]

Eh, think what you will.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As for the mods, I don't believe you even need 2 variations of the same genitals.  Squeegy's mod can be used as a basis for people to make their own mods, he basically has most things covered, last I checked.  Its a great 'tutorial' and reference to body and caste mods. 
Modding genitals to every other humanoid can be done via adding the appropriate body tags, using Squeegy's mod as a base.  Among the many options...

If Toady himself added the genitals, different story, since it would give the strong impression that it is condoned and the sorts of atrocities would be littering the forum...

Generic waste is one thing, but even if the main post was edited, look at the thread title...

>.>  It makes you wonder about what the OP really has in mind.

[Djohaal]

...Hah... civilized.  Keep believing that.

You're fighting against the wrong idea. Read the main post again; this is only about a rather generic "Filth" fluid no worse or detailed that the contents of any sewer that Indana Jones or James Bond has crept through, and which would exist primarally so that it can be taken care of with sewer systems which, occasionally, would go horribly wrong, just like everything else in DF.
 
You've somehow taken a suggestion to add an optional, sanitized infrastructure layer to the game and turned it, in your mind, into a raging culture war with you and God on one side and the Liberal Media, 4Chan, and everyone else on the other.
 
I'm not telling you to change your mind, but consider taking a step back, a deep breath, and a quick re-read of the OP.

I was suspecting about the exact same thing.

But it is a lost cause. Most of the people who argue against prefer to cherry-pick the argument and not look at the OP.

Eh, think what you will.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As for the mods, I don't believe you even need 2 variations of the same genitals.  Squeegy's mod can be used as a basis for people to make their own mods, he basically has most things covered, last I checked.  Its a great 'tutorial' and reference to body and caste mods. 
Modding genitals to every other humanoid can be done via adding the appropriate body tags, using Squeegy's mod as a base.  Among the many options...

If Toady himself added the genitals, different story, since it would give the strong impression that it is condoned and the sorts of atrocities would be littering the forum...

I don't see what makes it a different story. What toady's supposed "morals" and "values" as he implements features have to do with this? If people were childish and wanted genitals they'd make and install the mod and talk about it all the time. And ever since when are genitals "atrocities"?

Generic waste is one thing, but even if the main post was edited, look at the thread title...

>.>

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